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Thread: Das Boot & The Subway

  1. #1

    Das Boot & The Subway

    Stephanie, Tyler, Aralynn and I headed down Das Boot and The Subway on May 24th, 2012. The weather and lighting were amazing!! We wore 7mm wetsuits, neoprene booties and gloves; needless to say hypothermia was not an issue. We were all playing like kids in a waterpark. Seriously, it was the most fun I've ever had on a hike.

    We sprinted from Das Boot to the wet part of The Subway with our wetsuits on. This proved to be an excellent strategy. There is more water in The Subway than I've ever seen (over the past 7 years), and it is chilly. The weather only warmed up to 75-80 degrees, so those that we encountered without wetsuits were freezing their butts off.

    Steph and I wore headlamps after reading that Das Boot is so dark in places that you might not be able to see. This is decidedly NOT TRUE. There are places where it is dim, but there is easily enough light to navigate with.

    FWIW, you can swim underneath the jammed log in Keyhole falls. It is a tight fit, but all four of us did it. A couple of photos are provided below.

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    I've seen a bunch of photos of people rapping into The Subway. This might be the most disturbing one.
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    http://amazingslots.blogspot.com/201...nd-subway.html
    THE MOST TALKED ABOUT CANYONEERING TRIP OF 2017 - WEST CANYON VIA HELICOPTER.
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  3. #2
    oops. meant to post in the rope thread.

  4. #3
    Looks great in there. Nice TR.

    Ken

  5. #4
    Cool nice pics

  6. #5
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Looks like a good time.

    Shoot me an email sideband, will ya... not sure I have your real email at hand.

    CanyoneeringUSA at gmail dot com

    Thanks.

    Tom

  7. #6
    thanks for the update. we are heading down this weekend

  8. #7
    How hard is it to get a permit for Das Boot? Limited? Stand outside permit office early? And, are the Das Boot permits only available at the permit office, not online? I enjoyed the Subway so much last week that I'm going back this next week and I would like to add Das Boot into the endeavor. Do I pay for two separate permits? Anyone care to explain? Thanks!

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  10. #8
    I just pick up a Subway permit. There is no official starting point to the Subway. This getting dual permits is something a couple dumbass canyoneers started. YMMV

  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by WorkBad View Post
    How hard is it to get a permit for Das Boot? Limited? Stand outside permit office early? And, are the Das Boot permits only available at the permit office, not online? I enjoyed the Subway so much last week that I'm going back this next week and I would like to add Das Boot into the endeavor. Do I pay for two separate permits? Anyone care to explain? Thanks!
    There is a separate permit, I agree with Shane that it is dumb. It's not really necessary to obtain it.

    However, if you didn't return from your hike, the park would have a better idea of where you are and it *might* expedite your rescue.

    Or maybe the park wants to limit the number of people down the Boot. 50 people venturing through in one day would be an awfully big crowd.

    Those are the only reasons I can imagine for its existence.

    The Boot/Subway combo is really, really good! Leaving the wetsuits on until the end was an awesome way enjoy the route.

    Have fun man!
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  12. #10
    Thanks for the replies. I read Shane's story about the naming of Das Boot http://climb-utah.com/Zion/boot2.htm, good stuff!

    Slot Machine, I enjoyed your pics by the way and thanks for the TR.

  13. #11
    Euro Utah enthusiast Michael_WB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    The Boot/Subway combo is really, really good! Leaving the wetsuits on until the end was an awesome way enjoy the route.

    Have fun man!
    We did this route the Wednesday before Memorial weekend, having reserved both Das Boot and Subway permits online a couple of months back. We'd missed the lottery for May, but snagged a couple of unreserved mid-week Subway spaces.

    The final printed (single) permit showed our entry point to be Das Boot and the exit via the Left Fork TH, and it cost the usual $10 for two people.

    Cheers,

    Michael.

  14. #12
    I'm confused here...

    All the online permits for the subway are taken for the next two months. Why risk simply "picking up a subway permit", as shane said, when you could reserve a boot permit and not have to wait in line or take the chance of being too late the morning of? Very few days in the next 2 months are taken for the boot. Seems prudent to me to get a boot permit and play it safe

    Am I missing something?

  15. #13
    Here is the deal... originally a Das Boot permit was part of a Subway permit (and still is as far as I'm concerned). Das Boot was just considered an alternate entry to the Subway (same as Russll Gulch).

    Then a couple canyoneers started asking for Das Boot permits because they only wanted to do Das Boot and not hike out the Subway, so the park was nice enough to create a Das Boot only permit that required you to exit out the standard Subway Entrance. Soon enough canyoneers saw the Das Boot only permit on the pull-downs and started adding a Das Boot permit to their Subway permit and somehow it has become standard practice to pick up both permits when doing the Das Boot/Suway combo.

    So.... unless the park is requiring me to enter and exit at a specific GPS waypoint I consider Das Boot and Russel Gulch to be slight variations of the standard Subway route. Your Subway permit states you are entering at Wildcat and exiting at Left Fork and with a Subway permit you are doing that. If canyoneers would stop picking up a Das Boot permit when exiting the Subway this mess would return to the "normal" way it once was.


  16. #14
    Euro Utah enthusiast Michael_WB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    somehow it has become standard practice to pick up both permits when doing the Das Boot/Subway combo.
    As I stated above, the ranger at the VC charged us for and issued a *single* permit for our recent trip.

    I suppose this could viewed as a Subway permit (with Das Boot entry), or a Das Boot permit (with Subway/Left Fork TH exit) depending on one's particular point of view.

  17. #15
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkBad View Post
    I read Shane's story ...


    T

  18. #16
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Here is the deal... originally a Das Boot permit was part of a Subway permit (and still is as far as I'm concerned). Das Boot was just considered an alternate entry to the Subway (same as Russll Gulch).

    Then a couple canyoneers started asking for Das Boot permits because they only wanted to do Das Boot and not hike out the Subway, so the park was nice enough to create a Das Boot only permit that required you to exit out the standard Subway Entrance. Soon enough canyoneers saw the Das Boot only permit on the pull-downs and started adding a Das Boot permit to their Subway permit and somehow it has become standard practice to pick up both permits when doing the Das Boot/Suway combo.

    So.... unless the park is requiring me to enter and exit at a specific GPS waypoint I consider Das Boot and Russel Gulch to be slight variations of the standard Subway route. Your Subway permit states you are entering at Wildcat and exiting at Left Fork and with a Subway permit you are doing that. If canyoneers would stop picking up a Das Boot permit when exiting the Subway this mess would return to the "normal" way it once was.

    Revisionista!

    It's a nice story, Shane, it's a shame it doesn't happen to be true.

    ALL of the backcountry canyons have a 6-person group size limit and a (roughly) 12 person-per day quota. ALL of them; except exceptions were made for The Subway, Pine Creek, The Narrows and Orderville. These four canyons were placed in the Primitive Zone (rather than the Pristine Zone like the rest of the backcountry) because they were already seeing significant usage when the zone system was set up. Thus, your Primitive Zone Subway Permit allows you access to the standard Russell Gulch approach and to the Left Fork of North Creek, from Russell Gulch to the Left Fork Trailhead, but not to adjacent territory, which is in the Pristine Zone.

    Das Boot requires going out of the special Subway Zone, and thus requires a separate, Pristine Zone permit. The two permits can be on one piece of paper, written once and paid for once. In which case, it would be a Das Boot/Subway permit.

    Doing JUST Das Boot and hiking out is no fun. The hike out is way more uphill than you would think from going down it.

    There are many, MANY things I disagree with regarding the Zion permit system. But I think just blowing it off, encouraging other people to blow it off and lying about it are not good strategies for getting a more-rational permit system in the future. Especially in public.

    Tom

  19. #17
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    And I was always of the impression that a Das Boot permit, by itself, required exit up and out the Subway entrance.(should be printed on permit)
    Combining with the subway requires an additional declaration stating Das Boot/Subway. Adding the subway to Das Boot, takes a permit from the allowed daily quota from the subway, doing Das boot alone does not.

    Umm-Sorry Tom, I don't think I added anything to what you stated, just didn't see it before posting.

  20. #18
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    And I was always of the impression that a Das Boot permit, by itself, required exit up and out the Subway entrance.(should be printed on permit)
    Combining with the subway requires an additional declaration stating Das Boot/Subway. Adding the subway to Das Boot, takes a permit from the allowed daily quota from the subway, doing Das boot alone does not.

    Umm-Sorry Tom, I don't think I added anything to what you stated, just didn't see it before posting.
    All correct, dear.

    yes, the usual path is to secure a Subway permit first, then add a Das Boot reservation or permit to it later. But a Das Boot permit is just good for Das Boot, and requires an exit out Russell Gulch if a Subway permit is not also in hand.

    Same applies to a full left fork.

    Tom

  21. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Revisionista!

    It's a nice story, Shane, it's a shame it doesn't happen to be true.
    That is exactly what happened.... there is no such thing as Das Boot, that is a story written by Dave Pitney....

    Anyhoo.... it works like this.... if you ask for a permit at the Backcountry desk they will issue you a permit and charge you for it.... EVEN IF A PERMIT IS NOT REQUIRED....

    Don't believe me? Ask for a Russel Gulch Permit or a Misery Canyon permit and you will be charged and one will be issued. You will never be told a permit is not required... or in the case of Russel Gulch your standard Subway permit works just fine.

    And I once told Ranger Ray this was bullshit and canyoneers should be told permits to certain areas are not required when folks attempt to obtain them.... his response was the Park likes to know where people are and they consider it a safety measure, so Zion will issue a permit, even if it is not required, if you ask for one.

    So.... you are more then welcome to take up the finer details with Ranger Ray if you like. But until I am given specific checkpoints to hit on a route I'll just go with my dead reckoning of where the route goes...

    Maybe I should just change my standard Subway route description and call the entrance 1/2 mile east (Das Boot Entrance) the standard Subway route, and what is now the standard route I'll call the "hiker entrance". That should fix it.... then when asked by a ranger you can hand over your route description and say "I'm on course" .

  22. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    And I was always of the impression that a Das Boot permit, by itself, required exit up and out the Subway entrance.(should be printed on permit)
    Combining with the subway requires an additional declaration stating Das Boot/Subway. Adding the subway to Das Boot, takes a permit from the allowed daily quota from the subway, doing Das boot alone does not.
    That is what it has become.... but it was not always so (despite what Tom says)... there was no Das Boot, until Pitney's story became popular. Subway permits were around long before the story...

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