Do you use a safety backup?

[jeremy1701]

Seems the overwhelming response is no. I think what I'll do is practice the technique a few times to make sure I know how to use it should the need arise, but limit it's use outside of training. Thanks for the replies everyone!

[ratagonia]

Seems the overwhelming response is no. I think what I'll do is practice the technique a few times to make sure I know how to use it should the need arise, but limit it's use outside of training. Thanks for the replies everyone!

If you'd like to have it as a tool in your remuda (to mix metaphors), you will need to figure it out, which takes using it quite a bit. The Bluewater VT Prusik (piece of equipment) is a good tool to start with. Getting it to work in every situation requires a fair amount of work.

Like Brian, I've seen many people throw something on the rope and claim it is a backup. Only if it works. The range of things that work is pretty small - getting things to work requires understanding the system and some craftsmanship to get it to work.

Good luck.

A (n alert) bottom belay - much more reliable and easier to use.

Tom

[Taylor]

I do not use a backup device nor do I know how to attach/use one. I am a firm believer in a bottom belay, which we call a dead man. I arrested the fall of one friend when she let go of her brake on a rap in Pine Creek. I was at the top of the practice rap in AF canyon when a scout leader arrested the free fall of one of his scouts. The kid's hand got hot and he let go. That one was scary- the leader wasn't paying close enough attention, didn't notice until the kid was 10-15 off the deck. Unless told by the rapper, "I don't want one" we always hold on to the bottom of that rope.

[Kryzzle]

I take this as a "yes, there is indeed a need for a rappel backup belay". If situation allows for a bottom backup (fireman belay), that's just fine. If I'm the first on rappel, would I go without rappel belay? Definitely a no-go.

Rappelling backups as the prusik or autoblock require some (little and affordable, and it pays back) training and exercise, like is mandatory for all the skills required in canyoneering. I must admit I don't get the point why safety is not key - is it just because "I always did it like that, and nothing ever happened?"

Btw, this is taught in the courses of the Deutscher Alpenverein.

[ratagonia]

I take this as a "yes, there is indeed a need for a rappel backup belay". If situation allows for a bottom backup (fireman belay), that's just fine. If I'm the first on rappel, would I go without rappel belay? Definitely a no-go.

Rappelling backups as the prusik or autoblock require some (little and affordable, and it pays back) training and exercise, like is mandatory for all the skills required in canyoneering. I must admit I don't get the point why safety is not key - is it just because "I always did it like that, and nothing ever happened?"

Btw, this is taught in the courses of the Deutscher Alpenverein.

There are some philosophical avenues diverging here. Yes, safety is job one. But, it is not clear that consistently using a "rappel backup", past the beginner stage, improves the overall safety of the system.

I will not elucidate at length, but... the short version is:

a. rappel backups are un-necessary (I don't use them, and I am still alive)
b. rappel backups often don't work (mostly because people set them up poorly, in general)
c. rappel backups add considerable complexity to the system - this energy could be put into doing a better job of rappelling in the first place;
d. people who use rappel backups a lot tend to develop the habit of letting go with the brake hand. If or when they do not use a rappel backup, this can be a fatal mistake.

In the groups I canyon with, we do bottom belays upon request, and generally do bottom belays on long rappels (> 150 feet) when rockfall issues do not counter-indicate; and we give bottom belays to noobs.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I still wonder, what do you do when you're, say, starting a free air rappel, and, are lowering over the edge, and your Prusik cinches up when you're just past the edge? How do you get going again?

Surprises me that the Prusik is taught as a back up. Not common at least that I've seen climbing in Europe, or, in canyons. At neither of the canyoning rendezvous I've attended did anyone, from any country, ever use a rappel back up and certainly not a Prusik. Most of this was in flow, but, some especially high angle rappels weren't.

Excellant article on the reasons to not use a Prusik, and, other musings:

http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevi...afetyPost.html

Some of the statements I find germain to the conversation:

My attitude is that safety is not given by any gadget, but is a property of one's attitude and experience. In "Advanced Rockcraft (p66), Royal Robbins wrote "Safety in rock climbing lies almost entirely within this 'judgement' area. Little is left to chance. Equipment is a minor factor. With the best equipment in the world the man with poor judgement is in mortal danger". True words when applied to rappelling, I feel. I also believe that reliance on Prusik or mechanical safeties often causes a person to relax their vigilance. I can't prove that, I just believe it."

"Mr. Smutek concludes, "The protection provided by a Prusik 'safety' is highly suspect and quite possibly an illusion. Couple this with the nuisance of accidental jamming and the danger of getting hung up and it appears to me that a Prusik 'safety' does nothing except needlessly complicate an already complex maneuver.""

"The girl was extremely lucky, since a Prusik safety will NOT stop a climber once he or she begins to fall freely, unless something else slows the climber to a near standstill."

"One last quote, from John Long, on page 155 of the second edition of How To RockClimb: "A sliding knot backup (commonly referred to as a Prusik backup) is rarely if ever used as a normal procedure. If you don't know how to rappel, get a belay. If you are doubtful that you can make a certain rappel, don't make that rappel. Only if you are doubtful and must rappel, and no belay is possible, should you consider the Prusik backup as anoption…. All told, the Prusik backup is a highly contested technique. The only thing for certain is that it can be highly problematic.""

YMMV.

[Brian in SLC]

Yeah..Europe...no rappel back up here:

[Renatomic808]

I use an autoblock a lot. If the risk of the fall will kill you, then i use the autoblock. If the risk of drowning will kill you.. then I skip it. It would suck to be canyoneering/on rappel (especially solo).. a rock hits you from the top somewhere, and knocks you unconscious. You automatically fall to your death. It's a skill worth having and knowing how to use comfortably and smoothly. I say get comfortable with the autoblock and know how to use it.. and then when you've mastered it, then decide that you want to ditch it or not. May never know when it comes in handy. For me, with all the big first descents and unknowns I'm gettin into... not falling is a good thing. Just my .02

Fireman's Belay works.. but it would suck if the cliff you're on is super crumbly (our waterfalls drop giant boulders). The person on the bottom may end up with a smashed head tryin to prevent you from falling.

[dsr70]

I'm probably pretty old school in this, but I use a shunt. Both on single and double line. I don't have trouble with it grabbing on my 9mm singles, it's easy as snot to unlock once loaded, it's fast, it does well no matter the rope condition (dry, wet, wet/sandy), it's foolproof in installation when I'm tired and fumbling, and it's my second rope grab for contingency situations.

I happen to use it a bit differently perhaps, not squeezing it as I'm rapping. I have my hand above it, and it slides down below. I do not find the drag a problem, but I don't rap fast anyway and have all technora ropes that don't fuzz much. This would obviate the problem of forgetting to let go of the device in a fall, which is a serious concern, instinct to grab the rope being what it is.

[ratagonia]

I'm probably pretty old school in this, but I use a shunt. Both on single and double line. I don't have trouble with it grabbing on my 9mm singles, it's easy as snot to unlock once loaded, it's fast, it does well no matter the rope condition (dry, wet, wet/sandy), it's foolproof in installation when I'm tired and fumbling, and it's my second rope grab for contingency situations.

I happen to use it a bit differently perhaps, not squeezing it as I'm rapping. I have my hand above it, and it slides down below. I do not find the drag a problem, but I don't rap fast anyway and have all technora ropes that don't fuzz much. This would obviate the problem of forgetting to let go of the device in a fall, which is a serious concern, instinct to grab the rope being what it is.

Do you use it above or below?

Still sounds like you would have to "let go" for it to actuate, but maybe not.

Technora-sheath ropes I have used tended to fuzz up nicely right away.

Tom

[hank moon]

Hi Brian

What's often missed in the back and forth is the inherent usefulness of the tool. There are times when even the most experienced of us might worry about our ability to hold on (injury, fatigue, self-rescue, etc). and a properly-set autoblock backup might be a good choice if forced to rappel under doubtful conditions (at least Long acknowledges this).

[Brian in SLC]

Absolutely agree, Hank. I carry the tools to facilitate, and, have practised the technique, to be sure.

Is Dr. Gary Storrick the man or what?

Cheers!

[Brian in SLC]

Also...wasn't there an issue or two with a Shunt as a backup? I seem to recall. Wasn't just two different diameter ropes, but, something else I can't recall. You posted up a pic of it once but I can't recall the issue.

I used a shunt to eject off the end of a rope over a pool once...fast...kind of a nifty tool, but, mine's collecting dust.

[dsr70]

Do you use it above or below?
Still sounds like you would have to "let go" for it to actuate, but maybe not.
Technora-sheath ropes I have used tended to fuzz up nicely right away.

Above. I attach it to my leash a bit on the short side. In a fall, the arm extends up rope, the shunt goes only so far up itself and locks.

My most used technora rope has probably 400 raps+ on it (100 raps * 4 ppl, etc) and still has less fuzz than my poly sheaths with 1/2 the raps. That's just my experience, I don't know what to say.

But more specifically, on a fuzzy or fatter than 9mm rope, I can see the shunt possibly being not so nifty if it had to be squeezed. I wouldn't trust myself to let go in a sudden fall, it's that simple. I've got a niche application here where it works so well on 9mm technora ropes.

[hank moon]

Also...wasn't there an issue or two with a Shunt as a backup? I seem to recall. Wasn't just two different diameter ropes, but, something else I can't recall. You posted up a pic of it once but I can't recall the issue.

Attachment 54710

[hank moon]

Above. I attach it to my leash a bit on the short side. In a fall, the arm extends up rope, the shunt goes only so far up itself and locks.

The standard (below rap device) setup works great and should alleviate your concern about usage on larger-diameter ropes. I cannot see any advantage to using it above the device and unlocking it can be considerably more difficult.

Note: the Shunt (in use as backup) is not meant to be activated by intentional user action. It is there in case the brake line is accidentally released during rappel. If your backup safety plan depends on you deliberately "letting go" in case of a problem, might want to re-think or at least do some (safe) backyard testing.

[ratagonia]

The standard (below rap device) setup works great and should alleviate your concern about usage on larger-diameter ropes. I cannot see any advantage to using it above the device and unlocking it can be considerably more difficult.

Note: the Shunt (in use as backup) is not meant to be activated by intentional user action. It is there in case the brake line is accidentally released during rappel. If your backup safety plan depends on you deliberately "letting go" in case of a problem, might want to re-think or at least do some (safe) backyard testing.

Safe backyard testing? I SNEER at your silly suggestion.

That has been done, read the Storrick article.

http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevi...afetyPost.html

"letting go" does not work.

This is one reason I say people mislead themselves into thinking what they do will work. It won't. I guess it is fair to say it "might", but might is the same as won't when MY life is at stake.

Tom

[hank moon]

Yeah, let me append to my last post: "and/or read the Storrick article." One reason I don't regularly refer people to this article is that a frequent takeaway is: all kinds of backups just don't work. While I don't think it was Gary's intent to reach that conclusion, many readers do. In this case, however, it seems pertinent.

[Brian in SLC]

Help me out...on the far right of the schematic, what's the issue?

[dsr70]

The standard (below rap device) setup works great and should alleviate your concern about usage on larger-diameter ropes. I cannot see any advantage to using it above the device and unlocking it can be considerably more difficult.

Well I'm not a fan of below device safeties getting in the way of controlling the brake. Plus I like varying friction and tying off for photos and such.

I also have no problem releasing it once locked. I routinely let it lock and tie off. A simple mild bounce on the rope coupled with a squeeze unlocks it. I mean a really mild bounce, like shifting butt weight a bit. Very simple.

I know I'm odd in my love of the shunt used above device, but it suits my style well.