Do you use a safety backup?

[hank moon]

Help me out...on the far right of the schematic, what's the issue?

When one rope is loaded and the other not, the unloaded rope is fatter and can prevent the Shunt from grabbing the (smaller diameter under tension) loaded rope. Essentially creating the mismatched diameter situation (middle panel in the diagram)

[coderedsafety]

I work in a confined space rescue teams and so I always keep safety backup along with me because any time there can be emergency immediate rescue confined space is important.

[mtn_dude]

I've used backups for big free hanging raps if i'm the first one down and/or a bottom belay isn't available. which i agree with several comments about that fireman belay needs to be alert or its kind of useless. and my thoughts on autoblocks and other self belays is that the need comes up only once in awhile. the first time i did pinecreek back as a mere beginner i used my VT on top but that's pretty much the last time i used a safety backup, i can think of 2 other times since then on bigger raps that i'd never done before but have since gone back and new what the rap was like so it was all good.
If you want to put one on then feel free to add that safety, but know what you are doing with it. I'd hate to hear of anyone that's said they never use em and they aren't necessary had fallen off a rap and injured themselves....that would be terribly ironic...

[Iceaxe]

After the recent Subway accident I thought it might be a good time to bump this thread. From reports out so far it appears an autoblock was when the snowball started rolling.....

From what I understand either his autoblock locked off and he didn't know how to escape from it... or... his autoblock got sucked into his rappel devise and caused a clusterf**k he didn't know how to escape from.

[Brian in SLC]

But...then...he cut off the harness to free himself? And, the leg loop trapped his leg/ankle?

Yikes.

I can't imagine a properly positioned autoblock would have been a dealio. But, the cord or knot or something got stuck in his belay device and caused him to grind to a stop? Unable to get free, he cut himself loose? Not an unreasonable solution I suppose. "It" happens that his foot got trapped? Ugh.

He apparently took a "how to" type class where he learned this autoblock thing? Who teaches that around Zion? And, how is it taught? Ie, do they put the rappel device out away from the harness on a tether, or, is it close off the belay loop with the autoblock off the leg loop?

Kinda wonder the gritty details of what happened. If his rappel device sucked up the autoblock and that's what jammed his progress?

Scary stuff. Being stuck upside down with your foot trapped in a leg loop from the harness, and, your harness on the rope due to being stuck on a knot...all five feet or so from ground level but free hanging? Yikes. Crappy scenario to try to recover from. If you were super tired, and, lacked a bit of strength, I wonder if most folks could aid themselves in that situation? Especially sans any equipment. Knife taped to a stick and cut yourself free?

I think good to split off from the accident thread to discuss...

[Iceaxe]

Being stuck upside down with your foot trapped in a leg loop from the harness, and, your harness on the rope due to being stuck on a knot...all five feet or so from ground level but free hanging?

But your rope is hanging next to you and scured above you.... so even if you lacked strength you should be able to construct some type of prusik system to right yourself.... that is if you even know about prusik systems.

One thought... I always teach people to climb and rappel with their packs on (or at least attached). And my reasoning is when things go bad you will have your gear with you. A prusik systems does no good if it was in your pack that you tossed to the bottom of the rappel.

[Brian in SLC]

But your rope is hanging next to you and scured above you.... so even if you lacked strength you should be able to construct some type of prusik system to right yourself.... that is if you even know about prusik systems.

If it were attached to your harness...then, a Prusik would be WAY out of reach.

Even so, difficult at best upside down with all your weight on your ankle. Not like you can step in a foot loop!

Ok, you get a Prusik on the rope, now what? You could even add another. Then what? Not many folks could correct this orientation solo. Yes, you're welcome to try this at home. Please report results.

[Deathcricket]

No I have to agree with you Brian, I think once you're hanging from your ankle you're pretty screwed. One important factor we are missing though is there a partner to help you out. Let's also not forget that the helper can be above or below him. Although not sure if a 60 year old can walk up that slippery log but is feasible. She walked down it without slipping sounds like.

I do think with a cleverly made loop in the rope, snug it on the stronger arm up past the elbow, and a pull from above, this could be sorted out. Or at worst case scenario a stick with the knife attached would make quick work or the bind. Again though an elderly person falling headfirst is very dangerous. Really depends on how it looked on the scene.

[Iceaxe]

By the time the guy was hanging upside the snowball had been rolling for a while and was moving pretty fast... part of the issue was not dealing correctly with the first problem and then creating a second bigger problem.

It takes some real work to go from a stuck rappel device to hanging up side down by one foot.


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[Brian in SLC]

I think his wife rappelled down first...

My bet is this situation played out for awhile. He was stuck. Probably fiddled a fair bit before coming to a solution. They were tired and gettin' more so. Day had been a long one for them. He decided a course of action with more than likely bad results, unseen ahead of time, there but for the grace, in the heat of battle...hard to be too critical IMHO. Yeah, screwed up. Tried to correct, didn't work. So, hanging there, probably feeling fairly worked and who knows what else, I can totally understand him telling the wife, "go for help". No risk for her in trying to get above him, etc. Sad, but, a pretty sober and reasonable choice. Maybe he didn't know how much the clock was ticking.

She'll never forgive herself for not being faster, or, getting lost. I've known folks in that situation, and, don't know how they got on with life, really.

Accident. Preventable? Sure. Tragic.

[Renard]

He apparently took a "how to" type class where he learned this autoblock thing? Who teaches that around Zion? And, how is it taught? Ie, do they put the rappel device out away from the harness on a tether, or, is it close off the belay loop with the autoblock off the leg loop?...

I can answer this: ZAC. Took a one day first timer class from them several years ago. Jonathan Z. took us out himself. Gave us autoblocks to attach to our leg loops and taught us to use them on every rap. This was in Water canyon. Next day we bought cord and made our own and used them in Keyhole and Pine Creek. Had never rapped ever until that day and thought it was required.

Maybe they don't teach this any longer. I was ok using one but my friends never liked the block. One actually got his stuck coming off a 130ft drop and had to cut it off halfway down. Pretty scary to be hanging there playing with a knife.

Since that time we have done many more canyons and usually don't use a block. But in cases like the last rap in PC, I usually go down first to belay people from the bottom, and I usually use an autoblock on that rap. I don't really like it but the lack of any backup on that rap freaks me out. One mistake and it is all over. But having said that we always rap on double 9's so it's probably not as dangerous as I am thinking? I am not sure - what can you do if your break hand cramps up on a big free hanging rap like that?

[2065toyota]

Add more friction. Technique varies based on what device you are using

[Iceaxe]

I am not sure - what can you do if your break hand cramps up on a big free hanging rap like that?

I'd suggest just switching hands....

Also... if I had someone that was uneasy on something like the last rap in Pine Creek and was not able to provide a fireman's belay I would use my pull cord and set up a top belay. YMMV

[Deathcricket]

I can answer this: ZAC. Took a one day first timer class from them several years ago.

I don't know if it was ZAC but "someone" still teaches this for sure. We took a noob along on one of our trips who took a one day class, and she insisted on using it also. By the end of the trip though we had convinced her of the dangers of it and got her to abandon it. But at first she was utterly convinced she would die without it. Hard to argue when someone is scared, so we just let her use it, but once she understood the fireman's belay it made more sense. I think the reason they do this is because there is only one guide on most of these trips yeah? So the pro is at the top and you can't rely on a noob to belay correctly.

I did see two separate guided groups in Water canyon though, not ZAC the other guys down the street that also do bike tours, can't recall the name. But both guys in that group just belayed them from the top. Looked very legit and competent to me. No bad habits were taught.

[mdd]

I remember a dust-up a few years back where Rich took Darren (of ATS/WCCM fame) to task for teaching the use of autoblocks in flowing water situations. Rich said by doing so it was only a matter of time before someone dies in a waterfall due to a stuck autoblock. There is a reason they don't use them outside of the US. And Rich was right.

No guide/teaching service should be teaching autoblocks in flowing water. And those that teach autoblocks on dry rappels must drill into their student's heads that they are not to be used in flowing water. Anything less is dangerous and possibly negligent.

I hate autoblocks. They cause more trouble than they are worth. It is better, I think, to teach proper rappelling technique. If someone can't safely and competently rappel, perhaps they need more training and practice before entering a canyon. Or they should have a belay - from the top.

I say this because I don't like fireman belays much either. In theory they are nice, I know of a few folks who claim they saved them, and on occasion I do ask for one, but I do so merely for the psychological boost they provide to the rappeller. The fact is, in practice they are pretty bad, for two reasons.

First, nobody knows how to do them. I would say 95% of fireman belays I have seen in canyons - even by very experienced canyoneers - are done wrong. If you are standing at the bottom, holding the rope by your side or waist, you are doing it wrong. But that's how everyone does them. If you have a bunch of slack in the rope, or if you are looking around and not at the rappeller, you are doing it wrong.

To do it correctly you need to be very cognizant of the amount of slack out. You need to watch the rappeller for the entire length of the rappel. And you should be holding the rope above your head, because pulling the slack out is much easier when you pull vertically. Yes, your arms will get tired. Don't rest them by your side, unless your rappeller is ok with you giving a marginal fireman's belay.

The other reason is that it is simply difficult to stop someone who loses control of a rappel, it is a lot harder than you think. There is the delay when they lose control and your brain registers it. There is the time to remove the slack from the system. And in those delays the rappeller can generate a lot of speed/force. Add in canyoneer's propensity to use skinny ropes or rigging incorrectly for friction, and the problem gets worse.

I also find that someone providing a good belay somewhat impedes my ability to safely rappel. A good analogy is climbing, you are on lead, desperate to clip your gear, but your belayer is slow offering slack... usually things end ok, but not a comfortable situation, and it could lead to disaster.

Cavers did an interesting test on the fireman's. The methodology isn't perfect. Results show that they can save your butt, but they aren't a 100%. Or maybe even 50%.

http://www.caves.org/section/vertica.../bottblay.html

I would love to set up a practice rigging that is safe for the belayer, but also an element of surprise, where you don't know at what point the "rappeller" loses control. I suspect many people would not be able to catch the rappeller, but I need to test that hypothesis.

If you really need a safety backup, a top belay should be used. Or just lower the person if you don't have enough rope for a top belay.


M

[Iceaxe]

Personally I'm a big fan of the fireman's belay. Simple to teach and simple to execute. It's one of the first things I teach noobs.... but like anything else, there is a wrong way and a right way to do it.

Anyhoo..... here is a short video of my 14 year old daughter saving a canyoneer's ass using a fireman's belay.



I will say that was probably Sierra's first real test under fire in a canyon and I was extremely proud that she preformed at such a high level.

[mdd]

here is a short video of my 14 year old daughter saving a canyoneer's ass using a fireman's belay.

No offense to you or your daughter Shane, but I'm not convinced. I do concede that it is hard to tell from the video, but what I see is someone falling and not letting go of their break hand, and then stopping almost instantly, which means they most likely caught themselves, with your daughter pulling on the rope acting as a backup. The reason I say that is after the person falls over the edge, they stop falling just when Sierra is beginning to pull on the rope. When the person stops falling you can see that there is still significant slack in the system below the rappeller. In other words, the person is already stopped before the fireman's belay is fully executed. It's also hard to tell from the video what your daughter's hand position was in before the fall occurred. When we finally see her hands in the video, they are at her waist. Of course this is after she is already pulling on the rope, so they could've started above her head out of video frame.

If the person was in a truly uncontrolled fall (e.g., knocked out with no hand on the break line), I am willing to bet this video would've had a very different outcome.

But as I said, it is hard to tell what is going on from the video.

I think it would be very eye opening for canyoneers to set up a test like the one in the caver article. I think many people will be surprised at how unreliable a fireman's belay is.

A fireman's is better than nothing. I think a top belay, or even better, good/safe/competent rappelling skills offer a much better safety margin.

But as you say, YMMV.


M

[Deathcricket]

Cavers did an interesting test on the fireman's. The methodology isn't perfect. Results show that they can save your butt, but they aren't a 100%. Or maybe even 50%.

http://www.caves.org/section/vertica.../bottblay.html

I would love to set up a practice rigging that is safe for the belayer, but also an element of surprise, where you don't know at what point the "rappeller" loses control. I suspect many people would not be able to catch the rappeller, but I need to test that hypothesis.

If you really need a safety backup, a top belay should be used. Or just lower the person if you don't have enough rope for a top belay.


M

Bogus info. Not applicable in canyoneering. We never do 800 foot raps or very rarely. We almost always position ourselves in a place where we can see the rapeller and know when they are in trouble, and we also have help pulling from the rappee to assist them in stopping, not dead weight doing nothing. If the person on bottom can't stop the rapper, then the friction was set wrong and that is where the fault lies, period.

Your info about doing a firemans belay properly though is spot on, pay attention, hands up, etc. Good stuff. But I think done properly it's completely safe and standard.

Top belay is just as sketchy using the mitigating factors you just mentioned. Especially since it's always pretty hard to look over the edge and see them actually fall. You just get a surprise yank on your device. Have your hands in the wrong spot feeding out line and you are just as screwed IMO. If instead you are looking up and see it happen, you can prepare for it.

Both methods are safe IMO though, but I reject your idea that top belay is more safe. At least I think that is what you are saying. Good post!

TEST #	# BARS	MASS (lbs.)	HEIGHT (Ft.)	BELAY
1	5	175	115	CATCH
2	4	175	115	FAILURE
3	4	175	230	FAILURE
4	4	175	300	FAILURE
5	4	175	225	FAILURE
6	4	150	200	FAILURE
7	4	150	400	FAILURE
8	5	175	395	FAILURE
9	5	225	240	FAILURE
10	5	200	240	CATCH

Most our raps arent even over 300 feet. So the person would have already fallen the entire distance of the rap before this reaction time even occurred.

[mdd]

Bogus info. Not applicable in canyoneering. We never do 800 foot raps or very rarely.

Look at the link again. The rope was tied to an 800 bridge, but control was lost at between 115 and 400 feet, with most of the tests having control lost at 240 feet or less, all within the realm of canyoneering.

Granted the extra rope above the fall point does factor in, but I'd bet it isn't much.

We almost always position ourselves in a place where we can see the rapeller and know when they are in trouble, and we also have help pulling from the rappee to assist them in stopping, not dead weight doing nothing. If the person on bottom can't stop the rapper, then the friction was set wrong and that is where the fault lies, period.

I saw a video of a canyoner who slipped and fell, letting go of their break hand in the process, before free falling. How would this canyoner assist in stopping with your fireman's belay? Do you assume that anyone in need of a catch while falling on rappel is cognizant and oriented enough to aid in their stopping?

Top belay is just as sketchy using the mitigating factors you just mentioned. Especially since it's always pretty hard to look over the edge and see them actually fall. You just get a surprise yank on your device. Have your hands in the wrong spot feeding out line and you are just as screwed IMO. If instead you are looking up and see it happen, you can prepare for it.

You've obviously never belayed a second up from an anchor in a multi-pitch trad climb and caught a fall, or belayed a leader who falls when out of site (over a lip or something). I've gotten the "surprise yank on my device" many, many, many times, and with climbers the fall forces are generally greater than a rappeller being belayed from above, meaning the "yank" is stronger. I've also had many times where I've belayed a second from above, and they fell, out of my sight, and I barely registered that something happened. It's no big deal at all, if it was you'd hear about seconds falling to their deaths all of the time... but you don't, why not? What you are describing is belaying a rappeller from above using incorrect technique. Of course it won't work then, any more than a fireman's won't work with incorrect technique. My point is that it is a lot more difficult to catch a true out of control fall with a fireman's than with a top belay, and that people underestimate how hard it is to catch a fall with a fireman's to the point where it provides a very false sense of security.

The only way for sure is to set up the caver's scenario and try it yourself. I would love to be proven wrong since fireman's are so "easy", and I hope a canyoneer takes the test to prove me wrong (in a controlled environment, of course).


M

[Kuya]

I've used both prusik and autoblocks numerous times in various situations and like them. The secret is to have the know-how and common sense when and how to use them.