Stuck Ropes and Thank You

[shagdeuce]

We stuck our ropes on the last rap in Behunin yesterday. We tried to free them for a couple hours to no avail. I didn't feel comfortable ascending the 165', so there was little more we could do. We ran down to the Backcountry Desk before they closed to see if anyone else pulled a permit and sure enough one other group did. We ran back up to the rap. I made it all the way to the rap and some how missed the group of two that recovered our ropes (I think we took different paths up the boulder field/hill). One in our group ran into them around the middle pool.

First, a huge thank you to the 2 cayoneers that recovered our ropes. Sorry to do that to you.

Second, I find myself scratching my head on what happened. We emphasized to the last down that he needed to be sure the ropes weren't twisted above him and we kept the lines separate at the bottom. The second hand story was that it was pretty twisted and maybe our biner from the block was caught in the twists.

Lessons learned:

1. I felt it important to be first, since it was my rigging. Maybe we should have hand picked the last person down (even though the last person down in this case was competent).

2. The last down went double, so we should have had him remove the block.

3. The tails on our double EDK were probably around 24". Could they have been too long and been tangled up with the free side?

4. Some two way radios would have been good.

Any other Sunday morning QBing?

[oldno7]

I'm guessing your last guy used a figure 8 rappel device? If so, it's necessary to run a splitter above the device as you descend to keep the strands parallel.

If not an 8, then overly sloppy technique for sure.

The best reason to be the last person going double strand, is so he can remove any blocks on a rappel with potential for sticking a rope.

If none of the above, I go with--sheet happens.....(but the severe twisting reported by the other group, has me suspecting your lamar used an 8 without knowledge how to keep strands parallel)

[shagdeuce]

That was the additional suprising part. He was using a tube. Looking back, we definitly should have had him remove the block. He said he made sure there were no twists above him...not sure how that reconciles with the report from those that recovered the ropes (since we left the ropes hanging far apart)...

[Redpb]

I'm guessing your last guy used a figure 8 rappel device? If so, it's necessary to run a splitter above the device as you descend to keep the strands parallel.

could you elaborate on this please? i.e. device, setup, etc.
I was using an ATS on a newer rope this weekend and it was twisting it all to hell.

[oldno7]

could you elaborate on this please? i.e. device, setup, etc.
I was using an ATS on a newer rope this weekend and it was twisting it all to hell.

If you rappel double strand with a figure 8 type device.(which I hate)
The last person down can take his/her longest tether(something in the 18-24" range) mine is 18", With a Williams biner--23"
clip the biner from this tether between the 2 strands of rope, above your rappel device.
This will aid in keeping the strands parallel. It also slightly increases friction on your rappel.
Be warned--if you use to short of a tether or have your rap device extended at all, the untwisting of the 2 strands can jam into your device, so I've heard

[Redpb]

If you rappel double strand with a figure 8 type device.(which I hate)
The last person down can take his/her longest tether(something in the 18-24" range) mine is 18", With a Williams biner--23"
clip the biner from this tether between the 2 strands of rope, above your rappel device.
This will aid in keeping the strands parallel. It also slightly increases friction on your rappel.
Be warned--if you use to short of a tether or have your rap device extended at all, the untwisting of the 2 strands can jam into your device, so I've heard

simple enough. thanks for the response.

[outsider]

If your last is fine on single line, have someone on the ground take the pull side out from the wall (below/past the boulder) to keep it away from the single rap line and last descender. That prevents any chance of twisting and gives the best angle for pull anyways. Seems better than a splitter because you can spin on the freehang and re-introduce twist.
-john

[oldno7]

If your last is fine on single line, have someone on the ground take the pull side out from the wall (below/past the boulder) to keep it away from the single rap line and last descender. That prevents any chance of twisting and gives the best angle for pull anyways. Seems better than a splitter because you can spin on the freehang and re-introduce twist.
-john

This is standard practice IF there is no concern about dragging hardware through cracks and over brush.(moral of THIS story, stuck rope)
Hence--remove block, rap double strand.(believe me, I'm no advocate) but we develop varying methods(tools) to be able to adapt to differing canyon conditions.
If the anchor is bomber--pulling rope to one side and anchoring the rappel from the bottom is an alternative. It WILL double load your anchor.
We've rapped from and pulled ropes with a block from Behunin on several occasions(including fig. 8 blocks). I believe the last rappeler had twists in the lines and didn't clear them before laying the rope above him on contact points. It would seem the following group, that pulled the rope, bears this out.

[reflection]

The last two raps in Behunin, particularly if folk climb up the ramp (on 2nd to last) rather than connect under the large chockstone, can be classic stuck rope cauldrons.
I've done the canyon more than a dozen times. On three particular raps in the canyon, rope placement, where the knot sits (if two ropes are used) and single stranding for the last person are a necessity (at least in my view). On the last rap, the block/lines are re-set (after all but the last have gone down) so that the knot is dropped some 20 ft. over the edge; and then a long test pull and then making certain the rap line is out of the bag and free (to twist) if necessary. Sometimes anxious folk throw the rope bags over the large boulder; other times folk rap down on double strand lines and never clear the ropes. Some devices really put a pop/twist into the line. Paying attention to particulars can make a difference. Happy you all got out safely and finally landed your lines.