Fiddlestix Anchors

[AJ]

So I've run across quite a few mentions of Fiddlestix anchors lately. I know the concept, releasable knot with a bar holding it together. Rap down, pull the bar, knot comes apart and voila, no rope pull; similar concept to omni-sling.

Early conversations were discussing what to use for the bar (wooden dowel, metal bar, etc) as well as just using something similar to an overhand stone, or using closer to a figure 8 stone knot. Was wondering if folks would shed light on what they have been using and what they have seen work and not work?

Pictures especially helpful, especially regarding the knot being tied...

Note: I've seen these two posts:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...w-Do-You-Stein
and
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...ht=fiddlestick

However, this is just showing the strand isolation method of the stein, which I've used a fair bit. The second post talks about what folks have been using for the block. Thought it would be good to have a comprehensive discussion on what folks are using for the releasable version, and maybe tips on what folks have found that work and don't work. (Like Tom eluding to using the upward knots, which I'll have to play with to see why.) Interested to see what else folks have learned, as it seems those anchors are getting more used recently. Always looking to learn what folks are
using; to possibly add another tool to the toolbox...


Thanks for any info,
A.J.

[oldno7]

Hi AJ, heres a pic last week in Mystery.

Quite a bit of use in canyons lately, the best way to get a consistant release is the upward stein!!! Not an upward overhand.

Have used mostly on 8mm lines but in testing last week I used Toms old 9mm steel cable line. Known for it's lack of having a nice hand. We had it also release quite easily.

While your looking at pictures and thinking they only show an isolation technique, in reality you are not able to see that one end of stein is a 2-3' tail only, not another rap line. Hope that helps some.

I still use and sometimes prefer my own variation on the omni sling method, only I use webbing.

[oldno7]

As an addendum--I really trust this system to not pre-release but as good practice, and as seen in this pic--back up is a wise choice for all but the last.

[ratagonia]

We've been dialing in the material to figure out what will work best. The wood
when it gets wet has too much friction - perhaps with the right finish, it would
be good, but... The 1/2" Easton pole segments works for me (Tom), but it is
quite slippery, and other people find it spooky. The recycled sail battens
Brendan is using seem to have the correct balance of slickness and stick, and
they do not change properties when wet, and don't hurt too bad when they nail
you from 60 feet.

So, that is the delay in the release of the "product". My tumble also makes me a
bit more cautious about putting things out there, as I also thought the Water
Trap was pretty close to ready to go. I'm thinking about releasing the
"information" version rather than the "product" version, though there is
considerable liability associated with that, too.

Tom

[AJ]

Thanks Tom and oldno7.

On one side being a short tail - Duh. I guess I should get more than a few hours of sleep per night. ;)

oldno7: Would love to hear more about the webbing version of the omnisling if you are willing to share...

Tom: I understand your hesitation, and hope you are all healed now. (Thought I saw you back to playing; so think so...)


Thanks again,
A.J.

[Summit2Sea]

recycled sail battens

Ahhh, that's the material used for the toggle... A friend of mine had one of the batten toggles that he showed when using the releasable stone knot; it worked pretty nice and did seem to have a good balance of slickness and stick... I wasn't sure what type of material it was so I questioned him on whether or not it would carry the load exerted on it during a rappel, especially if it was a very large person as some of my friends are... :0) and/or if there was a lot of bouncing on the line during the rappel... I guess sail battens have a pretty descent breaking strength and don't weigh much... Thanks for the post, Tom...

[ratagonia]

Ahhh, that's the material used for the toggle... A friend of mine had one of the batten toggles that he showed when using the releasable stone knot; it worked pretty nice and did seem to have a good balance of slickness and stick... I wasn't sure what type of material it was so I questioned him on whether or not it would carry the load exerted on it during a rappel, especially if it was a very large person as some of my friends are... :0) and/or if there was a lot of bouncing on the line during the rappel... I guess sail battens have a pretty descent breaking strength and don't weigh much... Thanks for the post, Tom...

The fiddlestick does not actually "carry the load". There is a bending force applied to the stick that is fairly low. How low? Well, I remember being able to do this sort of physics/mechanics problem, but it has been many years since then. Perhaps a recent E-school graduate could run the equations.

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

Hi AJ, heres a pic last week in Mystery.

Quite a bit of use in canyons lately, the best way to get a consistant release is the upward stein!!! Not an upward overhand.

Have used mostly on 8mm lines but in testing last week I used Toms old 9mm steel cable line. Known for it's lack of having a nice hand. We had it also release quite easily.

While your looking at pictures and thinking they only show an isolation technique, in reality you are not able to see that one end of stein is a 2-3' tail only, not another rap line. Hope that helps some.

I still use and sometimes prefer my own variation on the omni sling method, only I use webbing.

So, do you mean that a fiddlestick works better on a rope with more hand or less hand?

[oldno7]

So, do you mean that a fiddlestick works better on a rope with more hand or less hand?

If done properly--It shouldn't matter.........

But either require a backup.

[moab mark]

Here is the one I have been playing with A.J. It is a 1/2 inch aluminum rod with a hole drilled for a keeper to go on the other side. The keeper is tied into the pull side to release prior to pulling the tubing out. Has the possiblility of knocking you silly on the way down. Yea I know need to clean up my work bench.

Mark

[Summit2Sea]

Here is the one I have been playing with A.J. It is a 1/2 inch aluminum rod with a hole drilled for a keeper to go on the other side. The keeper is tied into the pull side to release prior to pulling the tubing out. Has the possiblility of knocking you silly on the way down. Yea I know need to clean up my work bench.

Mark

Very cool... "Nice" release design!!! Is the keeper you're using a cotter pin/hairpin??? :0)

[moab mark]

Yes it is a keeper like you use on the hitch of a truck just smaller diameter.

[ratagonia]

I have added the Stone Knot to the new-new Tech Tips on the Canyoneering USA website...

http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com/t...secret-weapon/

Tom

[canyoncaver]

Would you guys care to explain the benefits/reasons for using a fiddlestick? Are we talking tree bark conservation and rope groove prevention? That's all I've come up with. Feel free to answer with some variation of "well, if you don't know then you shouldn't be thinking about using one. Stick to canyons like Yankee Doodle and the Narrows, noob."

More helpful though would be discussion on situations where you think the fiddlestick is superior to other methods and why. Thanks.

[ghawk]

I'm thinking of one of those crappy pulls where it can get stuck while you're pulling the mess through. With the fiddlestick you just pull it out and the whole thing drops down. Saves your rope from wear and the canyon from grooves as well. Cliff and I are going to play around with it a bit this weekend but I haven't actually used it yet. So take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

[hank moon]

Having never used a fiddlestick, I am curious: what advantages does it have over block/pull cord combo? Not "in theory" but in practice. Can anyone who has used it extensively give a short list of real advantages (not imagined ones) over block/pull cord?

[canyoncaver]

Yeah, what Hank said.

[ratagonia]

Big advantages of a Fiddlestick Anchor

1. Can use anchors you would not otherwise consider. Things back from the edge quite a ways, things that are really big.
2. You don't leave webbing behind.
- 2a. Leaving crap in canyons is leaving crap in canyons. Minimizing the crap we leave in canyons is a good thing.
- 2b. Not leaving webbing in canyons means you don't need to bring as much webbing on explorations as you used to, and manage the gradual diminishment of that webbing.
3. Not pulling the rope through tends to minimize rope grooves.
4. Since you are not pulling a rope through, you can tie ropes together to rappel with. In some cases this means you can build fewer anchors.
5. Leaving a canyon with nothing in it means the next party can also have a first-descent experience.
6. It is often fast and easy.

Tom

[Scott Card]

Any one tried PVC? Light and strong and cheap. Too sticky?

[ratagonia]

In our experiments, we've noticed a few things:

1. smaller diameter better - has less stick.
2. wood - changes when wet...
3. aluminum pole tubing may be too slippery. A little spooky.

Tom