Stopper Knots

[agostinone]

Which do you use/prefer and why? I don't recall what I was taught when I took the ACA course (or if it was covered). I use a Piranha and a figure 8 on a 9.2mm rope seems like it could pass through.

[Iceaxe]

I don't use stopper knots. I've had some bad experiences with the knots getting stuck. They create more problems than they solve.

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[ratagonia]

I don't use them either, for the same reasons. Also, when using a Pirana, many knots could pass through.

I consider it a better method to pay attention to where the end of the rope is, and not go past it. it's kind of like not-letting-go with your brakehand when rappelling.

Tom

[Exergy]

I'm a fan of stopper knots. Any knot will do, even an overhand. The idea is that it won't pass through your brake hand rather than the rappel device.

I agree that it is best to know where the end of the rope is, but this isn't always possible and human error happens. A stopper knot helps to mitigate this risk. Same reason we tether off before weighting the rappel rope, inspect each other's rigging and harness, and drive defensively -- to mitigate human error. World class climbers have made this fatal error.

Not sure when the knot would get stuck as long as it's undone before pulling the rope. Only other potential issue I can think of is when rappelling into deep water and you want to set the rope to just the right length. I still use a stopper knot and have the first man down untie after verifying the rope reaches the water.

[Scott Card]

Hmmm. Those that don't like the stopper knot, whatcha all do on the second to the last rap in Heaps? You know the one going to the bird perch? I am not sure I want my rope ending 300 feet off the deck without a stopper knot at the end of the rope.

[Iceaxe]

Not sure when the knot would get stuck as long as it's undone before pulling the rope.

I have had the stopper knot stick in a crack and trap the person on rappel by basically creating a fireman's belay. I have had the stopped knots get stuck on crap to the side of the fall line creating situations that are difficult to correct.

[Summit2Sea]

The only time I'll typically use a stopper knot is if the group isn't sure if the rope reaches the deck, the rope is set at it's mid-point & you can't see the end of the rope. Depending on who elects to descend and what their comfort level is we might throw a stopper knot in there. Although, there really are other (better in my opinion) ways to pre-rig for that type of situation. Maybe rig a releasable block and use whistle blows or holler to designate whether or not to lower. Maybe pay closer attention on your rappel and stop 10 or 15 feet from the end of the rope, & again, if short, lock-off & whistle or holler to lower. I've been on a rappel before where the rope was about 4-feet short to a sandy deck, short enough to rappel off of and not twist an ankle (much like a wet disconnect), then reset rope length. If there was a stopper knot I would have had to lock off, untie the knot, finish the rappel or whistle to lower. If unsure of rappelling skills and nervous about stopping or rappelling off the end of the rope and not wanting to deal with the cons of stopper knots, you could always use some sort of self belay device such as a VT Prusik etc...

[Iceaxe]

The only time I'll typically use a stopper knot is if the group isn't sure if the rope reaches the deck, the rope is set at it's mid-point & you can't see the end of the rope.

When I encounter this situation I just toss the entire rope over and let the first guy down go single strand. We then pull the rope up to the required length...

OR...

You could also lower half the rope and set up a releasable anchor at the top so you could lower the first guy down if the rope is short... but for me just tossing the entire rope over is usually much easier. YMMV....

Just a couple different methods of skinning the same ol' cat....

[ratagonia]

When I encounter this situation I just toss the entire rope over and let the first guy down go single strand. We then pull the rope up to the required length...

OR...

You could also lower half the rope and set up a releasable anchor at the top so you could lower the first guy down if the rope is short... but for me just tossing the entire rope over is usually much easier. YMMV....

Just a couple different methods of skinning the same ol' cat....

Ditto. Quick. Reliable. Simple. Robust. Good.

Tom

[moab mark]

Nothing better then the sound of the bag hitting the ground.

[Stick]

Nothing better then the sound of the bag hitting the ground.

That is indeed a beautiful sound.

[Iceaxe]

Speaking of the sound of things hitting the ground....

A couple of friends of mine are completing the final rap of Heaps. They have stashed a 300' rope at the bottom so the first guy down is going to pass the knot on two 50's tied together..........

The first guy down the rope gets to the knot and is having trouble passing the knot while wearing his backpack, seems he has never passed a knot before while wearing a backpack......... so he cuts his pack loose which falls 150' and makes an extremely load thud that echo's loudly throughout the canyon.

Second guy is sitting up in the bird perch, which you can't see anything worthwhile from.......... hears the extremely loud thud....... and is sure his partner has just pancaked........ I was told an anxious few minutes passed until communication was re-established........



Yeah.... I know... a little off topic but the sound of bags hitting the ground brought back memeries....

[agostinone]

Nothing better then the sound of the bag hitting the ground.

This is what I've been doing and what I recall from my training a couple years ago (toss the rope bag and set the length for LAMAR after the others are down). I had an experience in Arsenic last fall where we rigged the first rappels as one long rap so we could leave the rope. It was a 200 foot rope and we only had about 6 inches to spare (didn't know that till we got down there). It brought to mind the unfortunate accident in No Mans and I thought I recalled some comments about tying a stopper knot. As I pictured it in my head I became concerned that the knot might cause issues such as those pointed out (hanging up on or getting stuck in something)--that's why I asked.

Thanks for the help.

[ratagonia]

This is what I've been doing and what I recall from my training a couple years ago (toss the rope bag and set the length for LAMAR after the others are down). I had an experience in Arsenic last fall where we rigged the first rappels as one long rap so we could leave the rope. It was a 200 foot rope and we only had about 6 inches to spare (didn't know that till we got down there). It brought to mind the unfortunate accident in No Mans and I thought I recalled some comments about tying a stopper knot. As I pictured it in my head I became concerned that the knot might cause issues such as those pointed out (hanging up on or getting stuck in something)--that's why I asked.

Thanks for the help.

Yes, I have often thought that using the toss-n-adjust might have prevented the accident in No-Man's.

T

[Brian in SLC]

Hmmm. Those that don't like the stopper knot, whatcha all do on the second to the last rap in Heaps? You know the one going to the bird perch? I am not sure I want my rope ending 300 feet off the deck without a stopper knot at the end of the rope.

Not sure I understand the question?

The couple of times I've done Heaps, I rap down, clip into the anchor. No stopper knots. When I pull the ropes down, I tie the pull end off, so, we don't lose the ropes.

If you've ever had someone absent mindedly leave a stopper knot in when pulling ropes after a rappel, then, going back up to undo the darn thing leaves an impression.

I do use them every blue moon. Last time I did, climbing, was off a rappel I couldn't see the bottom of as the cliff rolled over and cut under me. Put in a stopper knot in each end (I like a bite loop I can clip into if need be), tossed the rope, and, rappelled. One of the knots got jammed in a crack off to the side. Not to hard to free, but, wasn't havin' it just being pulled on. Was jammed so nicely, I took a photo of it. If I can remember, I'll post it.

[Scott Card]

Your answer is that you don't use a stopper knot on the second stage to the bird perch. I do because it is just a bit scary to me looking at only 10 feet of rope before I get the to perch and with still 300 feet below me to the deck. Must be me.

[Brian in SLC]

Your answer is that you don't use a stopper knot on the second stage to the bird perch.

Didn't, but, I think the first person down to that perch should secure the ropes into the anchor for the balance of the team.

Climbed the south side of the Great White Throne last fall. If you rappel down the climbing line, it really traverses. Nice to have a partner tie the ends off at the anchor. Not everyone has to be at risk for the king swing.

[Scott Card]

Yah, that is what we did. We did secure the ropes to the anchor but the first man down to the perch, well....... I guess that is FiMAR (first man at risk). That is why we put the stopper on the end.