Best belay device for Canyoneering?

[Kishkumen]

What is the best belay device to use for canyoneering? I have heard about ATC, Parana, Hydro bot and others. I have used a Parana for some time but my buddy hates it because it twists the rope.

Oh wise canyoneering masters, give me of your wisdom.

[Bootboy]

I know the totem is popular with a lot of folks. I use a rock exotica mini 8 and like it just fine. But they can both twist ropes. Check out the sterling ATS. It may well be my next piece of gear. I wish you could get it in stainless though.

Things to consider in descending devices include the ability to add or reduce friction, ease of lock off, ability to be used in ascent/decent mode, hard to screw up. Among many other things. It's nice to have one that can operate in several different modes.

[deagol]

there are some ways to rig the Totem that won't cause rope twist, from my experience. Throttle mode & carabiner break mode come to mind ...

[ilipichicuma]

I really like the Sterling ATS, because it's so easy to add friction and lock off. However, it also twist the rope (not as bad as an 8, but it does). If you want a device that doesn't twist it, you're pretty much limited to ATC-type devices. I recommend the ATC-XP. I still use mine of shorter and double strand rappels, and I find it to be really effective. You can also add friction with a leg-loop carabiner or z-rig if you need it. They also last forever. Good luck!

[moab mark]

Anything that resembles a figure 8 will twist the ropes. I am currently using the new ATS device and really like it. But it does twist the rope. To help reduce twist set your rope length so the end is just off the ground. I weigh about 190, using one hook on the ats and Tom's 8.3 ropes is really nice. I used a pirana for years and just could not quite get enough friction with pack on etc. If you do not want twist in the rope atc's are the best but they do not give you a lot of easy choices for changing friction etc.
IMO unless you are doing a lot of fancy rigging etc a totem is just a glorified figure 8. I used a Totem for a bit and unless i set it up in vertaco I could not get enough friction using it in normal figure 8 mode. My experience with throttle mode etc were hard to operate due to having to use both hands to make it work. You can set the totem up to rappel about a million different ways but most people use the same setup for most rappels.

Here is a tip on the ATS. I use it with the curve up. If needing more friction on the fly I am able to run the rope over the right hand side bottom hook and then either switch to left handed or pull the rope to the left with my left hand. It really increases the friction and is easy to do. Due to the shape of the hook it performs much better then the pirana did for the same move.

YMMV

Mark

[tcott]

I like the ATS, very versatile device. The Totem is a good one too if you are doing a lot of rigging with it. Try setting the rope to length for single strand rappels and twisting is no longer an issue.

[deagol]

There is a lot of truth to that (especially thet part about throttle mode) I don't like throttle mode unless on a large free-hanging rappel. There is, however, a mode I used that didn't match any of Rich's suggested rigging options where I just put a bite of rope through the vertical slot and put a carabiner on the bite (either leaving it free or then clipping that biner to the one that connected Totem to belay loop). This mode only requires one hand and doesn't twist the rope. As usual, YMMV ....

[Iceaxe]

What is the best belay device to use for canyoneering?

Ya know.... that's really a lot like asking which is better.... blondes, brunettes or red heads?

my personal preference is a tube style device. I'm currently using a BD ATC-guide

I hate those damn rope twisting 8's!

[ghawk]

I use the atc-xp or guide (they're pretty much the same thing) for most rappels and I'll have a carabiner in my leg loop if I need extra friction. I'll use the ats on really long ones because of the friction options.

[trackrunner]

munter

[Brian in SLC]

What is the best belay device to use for canyoneering?

Belay device? For...belaying?

I like the Petzl Reverso 3 (or the new 4) for belaying. Also great in guide mode, etc.

Now, for rappelling? I like that Sterling ATS but also the meaty BD ATC-XP.

[reflection]

Belay vs. Rap Device. Cabe has it right.
Rope, Slope and Weight (of canyoneer), mostly determine friction.
Rap device then comes into play.

With the 8 system. Figure 8, ATS Sterling, Totem, Pirana, friction can ARGUABLY be set for most any situation - assuming party has skill and technique down.

With the tube system, some will have too much friction and others not enough (short of double biner and leg biner adjustment); others will have adequate or appropriate friction. If one is using a 9mm rope in double strand mode, some may have difficulty getting the lines through (having too much friction) on an ATC XP/Guide. Easier in my view to use an Omega Pacific SBG when double stranding a 9mm line.

In a water canyons, the folk I go with mostly use Pirana (or the new ATS). In dry canyons, a mix of BD ATC or Guide and some SBG's. Others, in dry canyons, have moved to the ATS. Quickly, when you use these devices, in whatever situation you will find a degree of rope twisting, and that will be acceptable or unacceptable; and if the later, you will shift devices. Practically, I often carry 2-3 devices, use in different circumstances; on big free hang drops (where ropes can really twist) and proper adjustable friction is important, I use a variety of methods. Good luck

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: here is a good thread on rappel devices:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?37380


And here is probably the best thread you will find on the Totem
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?36194

[Kishkumen]

Thanks for all the info. I need to check out the totem and ATS. I like the Pirana for deep holes because I don't have to take the device to get the rope out. Can you get a rope out of the totem or ATS and keep it on your harness?

[ratagonia]

Thanks for all the info. I need to check out the totem and ATS. I like the Pirana for deep holes because I don't have to take the device to get the rope out. Can you get a rope out of the totem or ATS and keep it on your harness?

The ATS is a Pirana "clone" so it works much the same way. Has some advantages over the Pirana.

I'm sure there are 40-50 ways of using the Totem where it does not need to be taken removed from the rope...

Tom

[trackrunner]

Can you get a rope out of the totem or ATS and keep it on your harness?

yes. also don't need to remove the biner for a munter on your harness

[Iceaxe]

a munter on your harness

Talk about a great way to twist rope... nothing like yards of pig tails.

[trackrunner]

Talk about a great way to twist rope... nothing like yards of pig tails.

not with a double munter

also a Dulfersitz devise can stay connect to your harness & doesn't twist the rope.

[Kishkumen]

You really use a munter? I have tried it before on short raps...but i don't know if would dare use it on a long rap...I guess it would be good on a floating disconnect. Does the munter put a lot of ware on a rope?

[ratagonia]

You really use a munter? I have tried it before on short raps...but i don't know if would dare use it on a long rap...I guess it would be good on a floating disconnect. Does the munter put a lot of ware on a rope?

Yes, a munter puts a lot of wear on a rope.

Tom