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Thread: Bad beta is dangerous

  1. #1

    Bad beta is dangerous

    I took a group of newbies out for the first time this week. We had some very timid and small people going, so I was trying to be very cautious. I asked around about a couple canyons, and was told the places I was looking to go to we're absolutely dry! 2 days prior to our trip. No rain or dropped between then and the next two days. After we dropped in to the first canyon we encountered LOTS of water. Several of my group could not stem across it, and ended up swimming 4 stretches. Everyone got very wet due to the water. One of my group got extremely cold and hypothermic, and it took us over an hour to get his body temperature back to where he could function.

    PLEASE, if you don't REALLY know the conditions of a canyon, don't give beta just on an assumption. We could have easily brought wetsuits etc. but didn't as we're we're told it was absolutely dry. This experience turned out okay, but it could have been much worse.

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  3. #2
    I'm happy to hear that all is ok.

    If you had NOT asked around, how would you have done things regarding the selection of a canyon?

    What will you do differently next time?

    Felicia
    Some people "go" through life and other people "grow" through life. -Robert Holden

  4. #3
    You werent part of the special, ultra top secret, whispered code word only, you-have-to-be-born-into-it-so-just-give-up-now, elite, all star team, so you were probably given incorrect beta to make sure you "didnt spoil the canyon" with your noob presence.

    After all, these canyons are just playgrounds for "one or two groups per year of experienced canyoneers only," right?

    Seriously though, glad to hear everyone is ok. sounds like some conditions popped up that were unexpected. Sorry you had a rough go but again, at least everyone came out ok! Thats what counts.

    (re engage sarcasm generator)

    Maybe next time you should ASK first, and then someone can SHOW you, so that way they DONT have to TELL anything about the canyon. Because letting someone go into any canyon without the express written signed-in-triplicate approval of "the pros" is just not what were after here.

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  6. #4
    What canyon were you doing?

  7. #5
    Sorry to hear it. What canyon was it? I've known 'dry' to mean more dry than other years, but really not 'DRY'. I hope next time turns out better.

  8. #6
    I've had that happen before. First time I went into Boundary the description said it was supposed to be dry (since, apparently, before a couple years ago it always was) and my friend almost got hypothermia. Our route descriptions got destroyed in the water (didn't have a dry bag) and we ended up getting lost and having to spend the night in the MIA exit. Glad you all made it out okay! I learned my lesson that time, though, to be better prepared for those kinds of things. Now, generally, if there's even a chance of a lot of water, my friends and I will drag our wetsuits through the canyons. That's caused us some pretty major chagrin in the past (wetsuits are flippin' heavy!) but it's better safe than sorry.
    --Cliff

  9. #7
    We had brought wetsuits with us on the trip, but left them at the hotel as I eas assured this canyon was dry. It is usually dry, and not a problem, but i was worried with the recent wet weather we might hit some water. We planned on pine creek on Saturday, and knew we would need wetsuits there, so we came prepared for that.

    I am NOT trying to throw anyone under the bus here, nor am I trying to stir back up the whole not sharing general beta on a canyon. This canyon is highly bolted, widely known, and regularly used, so no secret handshake required. What I am saying is if someone asks if anyone has been down a very widely known canyon in the last few days, and knows conditions do one of 2 things.

    1. Either do not reply at all if you don't absolutely know.

    2. Give good data.

    If I had received no reply we would have taken full gear including wetsuits, and different clothes. This trip for us then would have been a non-event.

  10. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Felicia View Post
    I'm happy to hear that all is ok.

    If you had NOT asked around, how would you have done things regarding the selection of a canyon?

    What will you do differently next time?

    Felicia
    Felicia,

    We would have chosen exactly the same canyon. Next time we will ignore any and all suggestions and just do our thing

  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nieder81 View Post
    What canyon were you doing?

  12. #10
    Is this about the Yankee Doodle info I gave you a while back?
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  13. #11
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    By declining to say what canyon, where, you create an air of great mystery, essentially a Rorschach test.

    Was it deliberate endangerment (paranoia, the destroyer)?
    Incompetent leadership?
    A quick change due to weather?
    A mis-interpretation of what someone said?
    A guess made by someone, presented as knowledge?

    You don't need to name names if you don't want to, but for this to be a 'teaching moment', perhaps a few more details could be released.

    Personally, I'm pretty sure it is DeathCricket's fault. Elvis: "oh, oh, it's nobody's fault, but it just seems to be his turn."

    Tom

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Personally, I'm pretty sure it is DeathCricket's fault. Elvis: "oh, oh, it's nobody's fault, but it just seems to be his turn."

    Tom
    No it seriously might be (my fault), I'm pretty sure I told this dude yankee doodle was bone dry a week or so ago. I recall a couple puddles (when I did it 3 weeks ago) but nothing more than 3 inches deep. *shrug* Coudda screwed him over, but honestly I've never went through yankee doodle and needed wetsuits. Flies start getting nasty though and I would be more concerned about those.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

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  16. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    No it seriously might be (my fault), I'm pretty sure I told this dude yankee doodle was bone dry a week or so ago. I recall a couple puddles (when I did it 3 weeks ago) but nothing more than 3 inches deep. *shrug* Coudda screwed him over, but honestly I've never went through yankee doodle and needed wetsuits. Flies start getting nasty though and I would be more concerned about those.
    you elitist asshole. screw you and your misleading yankee doodle beta.

  17. #14
    Trail Master skiclimb3287's Avatar
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    If this is about Yankee Doodle, how quickly does it dry out?

    I am debating a trip through sometime this coming weekend. Going to have one newbie with me and another who is an experienced climber with one canyon under his belt. Main purpose of the trip is to relax, do a bit of hiking, and a couple days of mountain biking. Was thinking I could sneak a canyon in, but I am the only one with neoprene and it is not worth the hassle of the others renting for 1 short canyon.

    If wet, I will just have to wait a few weeks to get my fix...

  18. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs View Post
    you elitist asshole. screw you and your misleading yankee doodle beta.
    Bogley Karma-Swift and only slightly forgiving.

  19. #16
    Honestly trying very hard to not stir the pot here, so I was trying to be a little circumspect. DC you did give me the beta for yankee doodle, I did appreciate the response, and I know that you were genuinely trying to be helpful.

    The only reason I threw the question out, was about a week ago I was driving through St George, and got caught in a huge storm! In the interest of safety, and the enjoyment of my first time friends, i just wanted to cover all of my bases. Although everyone I have ever spoken with has found Yankee doodle dry, it did not become a slot canyon without water. In fact if we had of just brought shorties and some neoprene socks in our shoes, it would have been a blast playing in the water.

    As the canyon leader, it is 100% my fault if we, we're in any way unprepared. Fortunately due to the length of the canyon, short, and the perfect warm sunny day, ther was a minimum that could have gone horribly wrong. The rappel in was great, the trees were flowering, and the weather was perfect. We all made it home safely, just a longer day then we expected. I will try and download some pictures tomorrow when I get to my computer. Not set up to do it from my mobile.

  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs View Post
    you elitist asshole. screw you and your misleading yankee doodle beta.
    It's really his own fault though, for the secret handshake he used the "shocker" and we all know it's the "spocker" which involves two fingers.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

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  22. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    It's really his own fault though, for the secret handshake he used the "shocker" and we all know it's the "spocker" which involves two fingers.
    how can it be HIS fault? you are the elitist douche who provided the beta. it's YOUR responsibility to share beta with the community.

    i mean, come on, this is yankee doodle we're talking about.

    yankee.
    F#CKIN'
    doodle.

    that place is serious. someone is seriously going to die in there if you keep this attitude up. you can't just be all cavalier, giving people shit for beta. you have an obligation to this community to share beta with anyone who asks. and i mean ACCURATE RELIABLE beta, none of this misleading elitist bullshit. i'm talking maps with entrances and exits and escapes, photos of the anchor solutions, illustrations of obstacles in various depths of water, calendars with averages for rainfall in the area, median temperatures, preferred wetsuit thickness, number of carabiners, etc...

    i mean seriously, we can't just have people in this community looking at google earth, wandering into random canyons, taking personal responsibility for their actions, making reasonable decisions for themselves, exploring places for fun, and then keeping it all to themselves.

    these people have a right to know about OUR canyons. intentionally withholding valuable information is going to kill someone.

    and their blood will be on your head, deathcricket.

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  24. #19
    I know I know. I agree with everything you said. it's just I'm new to this secret community and not a pro when getting the reach around like you guys are. I'm sure if you go back to the first time you received the secret handshake and oral pleasure you probably didn't get your beta right either. All I'm asking is that the "A team" give me a little leniency this one time! I'm sure with a little practice I'll be handing out beta to my "special" friends as a pro like the rest of you.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  25. #20
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiclimb3287 View Post
    If this is about Yankee Doodle, how quickly does it dry out?

    I am debating a trip through sometime this coming weekend. Going to have one newbie with me and another who is an experienced climber with one canyon under his belt. Main purpose of the trip is to relax, do a bit of hiking, and a couple days of mountain biking. Was thinking I could sneak a canyon in, but I am the only one with neoprene and it is not worth the hassle of the others renting for 1 short canyon.

    If wet, I will just have to wait a few weeks to get my fix...
    Yankee Doodle dries out quick. And I bet it was 100 degrees there today, so...

    Even when it has water in it, it is usually possible to avoid most of it with some careful climb-arounds and stemming.

    Tom

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