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Thread: Show don't tell
04-23-2012, 04:11 PM #21
Just going to wet my feet a bit here...I'm not sure what side I'm on if we're picking sides. I do know that I like being able to have beta for canyons. The more info out there the better. Especially since I don't get out as much as I used to and I want the most bang for my buck. With that said I am a member of Circle of Friends and have found it very valuable when planning trips. On the other hand I've never once been turned down info from anyone when it comes to beta. I've asked lots of people on both sides of the issue here for info regarding canyons and have received prompt, almost always accurate, info immediately. Like within hours of sending an email. So I guess I'm saying I'm not sure there is an elitist attitude, otherwise they would have just ignored me. But hell, maybe I'm part of the in-crowd and didn't know it?
I can see reason to some canyons being off radar. Some are sensitive and some will become instant classics and get monitored too much if they were to become mainstream. I don't think its asking too much that if someone has asked you to not share the info you received that you don't. I'm not sure I understand why it's such a big deal? It's not like its hard to get. Most of these guys will take you anywhere you ask and show you anything you're looking for if you just ask. That at least is my experience. But hey, I'm awesome so maybe that's why.beefcake. BEEFCAKE!
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04-23-2012, 04:14 PM #22
Post Thanks / Like - 1 LikesThe Good Cop liked this post
04-23-2012, 04:34 PM #23
04-23-2012, 05:58 PM #24
When I first started hitting the Plateau hard, back in 1989, it was easy to visit places that certainly hadn't seen humans in god knows how long. Certainly no recent hikers. When Steve Allen started publishing his books, things changed. Suddenly I began to see footprints way back in there where I'd been traveling on a game trail. Little Anasazi artifacts were being put on display at secluded alcoves. Micro trash at waterholes...I'm talking deep in there.
I did a considerable amount of canyoneering with Kelsey back in '03-'04. I realized that nothing was sacred to him, as he wanted me to provide copies of my maps with seldom seen ruins I had found, some with real "items". I ended my relationship with him because of that. Some of the places I described while just talking ended up in his latest editions anyway. Sure enough, footprints abound.
I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, it would be nice to have everyone open up with all they have so I can experience it too. On the other, I've seen first hand the damage that can occur from the gang banging. Not everyone practices Leave No Trace. All it takes is just one or two morons or groups spewing toilet paper, stacking rocks, building fire rings, swiping pot shards, washing their butts in the potholes...I don't know man, this is a tough one.
04-24-2012, 01:14 PM #25
Here's my two cents on the subject... I have no problem with "secret" canyons, any canyoneer worthy of the name has a couple canyons they don't share for one reason or anther. My problem with secret canyons really consists of two particular actions:
1. Flaunting secret canyons on the interwebs in the form of fluff pieces and pictures.... if it's supposed to be a secret then just STFU. Anything else is just taunting and will most likely result in your secret being outted.
2. Attacking individuals who wish to discuss a particular canyon that some circle-jerk considers their sacred cow. Unless you can show me a Bill-Of-Sale it's not your canyon and others outside your little circle-jerk are free to discuss it to their hearts content.
And as always... Your Mileage May Vary.
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04-24-2012, 03:48 PM #26
Well then, I clearly overreacted to what I perceived to be a "poke". My snide dissection of this facet of canyoneering culture was harsh and unnecessary, especially since this topic has already been discussed ad nauseam.
This topic strikes a raw nerve for both of us, so I think this is an excellent suggestion. We've discussed it (off Bogley), and I think we're cool (as much as two people that have opposing opinions can be ).
04-24-2012, 04:26 PM #27
04-24-2012, 10:29 PM #28
05-16-2012, 01:41 PM #29
05-16-2012, 02:48 PM #30
I've spoken with Ram about this numerous times and it works like this.... someone posts a fluff piece.... the next day my mailbox contains 20 or 30 emails from canyoneers wanting beta. So it puts demands on me to publish the routes, after all, that's what folks are paying good money for me to do... and I'm very good at what I do.... As far as I'm concerned fluff piecse and pictures are good for business.... all I'm really saying is if you don't want "your" routes beta then shut-up about them and don't post teasers....
Any more dumbass comments?
05-21-2012, 02:41 PM #31
you've bitched and moaned about it many times in the past, shane, this isn't the first. and we know you like to take advantage of when these threads are posted to post your beta, which makes your bitching and moaning about the posting of fluff pretty much ridiculous (but not the issues with the consequences of fluff leading to publishing the route).
posting fluff pieces isn't necessarily taunting (sounds like you're projecting here). people post reports, stories, pictures, etc. for a variety of reasons. let them decide why they're posting it. if someone reads a post and misinterprets it as taunting, that's their choice (and your choice if you choose to see it that way).
if you want to warn people that posting fluff may lead to their canyon being betaed, sounds great to me, but i don't see why a bogley moderator should rail about people posting fluff pieces on cool canyons and experiences.
05-21-2012, 02:54 PM #32
So glad to have this thread back at the top of the forum... I was getting so sick of hearing about canyoneering blah blah blah.
05-21-2012, 03:07 PM #33
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Those who find a canyon on their own can do whatever they want with the beta. This includes keeping it secret, sharing it or choosing to do a show-don’t tell. Even if I do find one on my own, sometimes I don’t share if someone might be sensitive to it.
If someone shows you a canyon or gives you the beta, then you should respect their wishes, IMHO (keep secret, OK to share, show don’t tell, etc.).
Some have asked me to not share canyons (i.e. Boundary) andit didn’t bother me not to share it with anyone for several years (once it was published, it was a moot point). Others have shown me beta on canyons such as Checkerboard and said it’s OK to go hike the canyon, but don’t publish it on the internet (I’ve never had a problem with this either). Still others have shown or went with me on other canyons (such as Cowboy) and just told me to wait until after they published it to share it with anyone.
I don’t think anyone can blame anyone fairly if he/she found a canyon on his/her own and shared.Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.
05-22-2012, 01:17 PM #34
05-23-2012, 12:39 AM #35
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