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Thread: Water vs overhand knot
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04-17-2012, 02:32 PM #1
Water vs overhand knot
Hmmm. I've rapped of an in-line overhand a number of times. Everytime I connect to ropes together for example.
Have used to to tie cord together for a rap anchor, mostly 'cause I had minimal amount of cord and was in a hurry (v-thread for an ice anchor and my stance was poor).
I normally use a water knot. Still...an in-line overhand (aka "flat overhand") should work ok, I'd think....only thing I'd be worried about is how easy it could come untied, which, is why I use them especially to tie two rappel lines together.
Tom, Hank, what say ye?
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04-17-2012 02:32 PM # ADS
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04-17-2012, 03:27 PM #2
Hank and I have discussed. We know the EDK / offset overhand bend works in ROPE, but we do not know if it works on webbing. Rope and webbing have significantly different properties. Therefore, we reached the conclusion we can recommend it for rope, and recommend AGAINST it for webbing. We just don't know, and can make a case for it working itself open in the more-slippery webbing. We hope to get it on a testing machine sometime soon.
Tom
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04-18-2012, 08:43 AM #3
Report results when you get them!
Quick search pulls up the Moyer data, and, one of the tests he did was to test 1" tubular webbing with a flat figure eight. Didn't capsize/roll, failed at the knot at 2070lbf. Interesting.
I'll admit I like the EDK for how simple and quick it is. Fairly sure I've rappelled from a sling, webbing, with an EDK knot securing the ends. I know for a route I was doing, I had some slings pre-tied that way to be able to quickly deploy them 'cause that knot is so easy to undo. Yeah, YMMV.
That water knot is fine, but, when you're tired, in a cramped position, trying to tie the knot, feed the other end through and around, tension it.... So much easier to match the ends, whip in an overhand, tension, good to go. Simple, easy to inspect.
Wasn't there a fairly good train wreck (accident) not too long ago where folks blew the water knot in the anchor webbing and it pulled loose? Seem to recall.
Yeah, I wouldn't carry a knotted sling for climbing/canyoning use as an anchor sling with an EDK in it (ok, I have, but not normally), but...if I was cutting a long sling into anchor material...I dunno.
Report results!
Thanks.
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04-18-2012, 08:52 AM #4
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04-18-2012, 10:54 AM #5
Nah, my bet is its here. Canyon accident. Maybe Red Rocks? Can't recall.
Seem to think they had set up a rappel from a tree or some such, and, the anchor failed. Eventually attributed to a poor water knot, I seem to dimly recall.
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04-18-2012, 11:24 AM #6
You fellers got me to wondering about water knot failures.... and I found this interesting info...
Water_Knot_Testin.pdf
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesjeremy1701 liked this post
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04-18-2012, 12:26 PM #7
Yep, more Moyer test data. Wish that guy was still doin' that stuff. Ugh.
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04-19-2012, 03:31 PM #8
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04-19-2012, 04:42 PM #9
I believe this might have been the orgianal post:
Originally Posted by From ACA
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05-05-2012, 05:10 AM #10
Tom writes "the EDK / offset overhand bend works in ROPE, but we do not know if it works on webbing. Rope and webbing have significantly different properties. Therefore, we reached the conclusion we can recommend it for rope, and recommend AGAINST it for webbing. We just don't know, and can make a case for it working itself open in the more-slippery webbing. We hope to get it on a testing machine sometime soon."
Agree... now I've also seen a double fisherman's used instead of a water knot. While it looks like a cluster *^&# in webbing, I have never been able to untie a double fisherman's after it's been weighted and in place for a good length of time. I have been able to untie some water knots, however.
Does any data evaluate or compare the strength of the double fisherman's in webbing?
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05-05-2012, 06:14 PM #11
This is a great thread. Thanks for the info and the data.
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05-06-2012, 02:52 PM #12
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05-08-2012, 02:52 PM #13
I guess since I'm killing time today and shooting out replies... I'll throw my 2-cents in... Definitely like and prefer the water knot in webbing, although, I think as long as you're not cross-loading and have the proper tail length with a overhand/retraced knot it should be fine... I've rapped off natural anchors with over-hand knots in the webbing and as long as the knot looked good, was at the back and the diameter of say, the tree, wasn't such that it was causing it to cross-load or pull on itself I always thought it was fine... Theoretically I don't think it's much different than if you're rigging a frost knot or tying an overhand on a bight to create a loop and shelf... if you cut the loop you have a overhand knot...
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05-08-2012, 03:14 PM #14
Uh....
A retraced overhand knot IS a water knot, aka ring bend, technically an overhand bend.
An EDK is an offset overhand bend, ie, a cross-loaded overhand bend.
The title of this thread is confusing, because the question is not Water Knot vs. Overhand Knot, but I think the thrust was Water Knot vs. Offset Overhand Bend.
Not sure why BDC would call an EDK an "in-line overhand" - to me that means a Water Knot, not a cross-loaded overhand. If anything, it would be an off-line overhand. "Flat overhand" is again very non-specific.
With that, S2S, can you restate what you mean? Let's use the terms 'Water Knot' and 'EDK'.
Tom
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05-08-2012, 03:57 PM #15
Ahhh, my bad... I was referencing the difference in using the water and overhand knots... Yeah, not too much into using what we're calling the EDK aka offset overhand bend in the anchor webbing... I guess I would be concerned about it loosening up and possibly capsizing... Don't necessarily like cross loading knots or bends, although, don't mind using the EDK for pulling rope and if backed up would rappel off it...
Ken
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05-08-2012, 04:01 PM #16
The term "overhand knot" either refers to
1. the simplest possible knot; or
2. any knot based upon the simple overhand knot.
So, a water knot IS an overhand knot, perhaps an overhand-family knot. Thus, I have no understanding of what the term "water knot vs. overhand knot" means ???
T
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05-08-2012, 04:10 PM #17
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05-08-2012, 06:03 PM #18
We're talking knots, and there IS a nomenclature. Words have specific meanings. When you use words that mean other things, yet the context implies something else... it makes my head hurt.
When I tie a water knot, I tie an overhand in one strand, and trace it back with the other end. That means it is a "retraced overhand knot", though more properly described as a "retraced overhand bend". Without "offset" in the name, it would be assumed to be loaded in-line, ie, like a water knot.
When I tie an EDK in rope, I put both strands together, and tie an overhand knot with both strands. Thus, it is not a retraced overhand knot.
- I know, I know. It's dead, Jim.
Perhaps a picture will help...
Tom
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05-08-2012, 06:33 PM #19
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05-08-2012, 06:47 PM #20
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