Rope stolen in the Roost 3/24

[penmartens]

Who suggested this?

Tom

Average Joe Road Trips

Brian,
The Moki exit is a 30-45 minute hike from the top of the mesa. It is not enroute to somewhere else, so the casual passerby would not be out there. In fact, it can only be seen from the bottom of the canyon.
It was not a brand new rope, but I thought it would be obvious to anyone who saw it, that it is a viable piece of equipment that wasn't just left behind. The kicker is, they probably used it to get out. Oh, the irony.

[spinesnaper]

Let's make a distinction here.

Legally, even with a note, the items are abandoned and can be removed without being theft.

Morally, people will have different views. I think you have a much stronger moral case if you leave a note. Much weaker without.

Tom

Tom

I am not sure if I am going to hire you as my backcountry lawyer.

You are not correct regarding what is abandoned property. If I am not mistaken you are quoting the law of the school yard: Finders keepers, losers weepers. However, and I am no lawyer, I do not believe that this is the applicable standard. Rather I believe the relevant law is the Uniform Unclaimed Property Act (1995) SECTION 2. PRESUMPTIONS OF ABANDONMENT states "Property is presumed abandoned if it is unclaimed by the apparent owner during the time set forth below for the particular property:...(15) all other property, five years after the owner’s right to demand the property or after the obligation to pay or distribute the property arises, whichever first occurs." While a rope without a note attached might reasonably be confused for abandoned property, there is no such confusion when there is a note attached. The note removes all doubt about the intent of the owner to return. Removal of the rope under this circumstance may very well be theft.

Ken

[ratagonia]

Average Joe Road Trips

Brian,
The Moki exit is a 30-45 minute hike from the top of the mesa. It is not enroute to somewhere else, so the casual passerby would not be out there. In fact, it can only be seen from the bottom of the canyon.
It was not a brand new rope, but I thought it would be obvious to anyone who saw it, that it is a viable piece of equipment that wasn't just left behind. The kicker is, they probably used it to get out. Oh, the irony.

"The kicker is, they probably used it to get out. Oh, the irony."

Why do you think they used it? I would presume that they did not use it, because:

A. from below, there is no way to see what the rope is anchored to. Might be well anchored, might not. Not worth trusting.

B. the climb up is reasonably easy and solid. Can be spooky, especially the first time. But the holds are big and solid, even if you do not use the chipped holds.

There certainly seems to be a lot of assumptions about "the other party"; and almost zero actual facts. Maybe I should not complain, as I enjoy a good work of fiction as much as the next guy. 'Much Ado About Nothing', anyone?

Tom

[ratagonia]

Tom

I am not sure if I am going to hire you as my backcountry lawyer.

You are not correct regarding what is abandoned property. If I am not mistaken you are quoting the law of the school yard: Finders keepers, losers weepers. However, and I am no lawyer, I do not believe that this is the applicable standard. Rather I believe the relevant law is the Uniform Unclaimed Property Act (1995) SECTION 2. PRESUMPTIONS OF ABANDONMENT states "Property is presumed abandoned if it is unclaimed by the apparent owner during the time set forth below for the particular property:...(15) all other property, five years after the owner’s right to demand the property or after the obligation to pay or distribute the property arises, whichever first occurs." While a rope without a note attached might reasonably be confused for abandoned property, there is no such confusion when there is a note attached. The note removes all doubt about the intent of the owner to return. Removal of the rope under this circumstance may very well be theft.

Ken

Excellent shade-tree lawyering, Ken.

But the question is how does property abandonment on BLM land managed under the guidelines this particular area is managed under. Individuals do not have the right to abandon private property on the public lands with an expectation of reclaiming it. Certainly not after 4 years, 11 months.

Clearly, I am declining to do the counter shade-tree lawyering required to refute your claim.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Kinda funny. Folks do this type of stuff all the time, then, get surprised when someone takes their stuff.

Climbers can be a bad lot when it comes to stashing gear. Was a big dust up a few years back about boulderers leaving crash pads in Rocky Mtn. Rodents got into them, rain, mold, mildew...just an ugly mess. So, some land managers are a lot less tolerant to this type of thing as that got pretty good press.

I hardly ever do it because I just don't want to be in the situation of having my stuff taken. And, really, I'd feel bad if I didn't get around to picking it up and it rotted away somewhere as unusable trash.

Sounds like a prior party that went through the canyon may have removed the rope in question? Wow. Hmmm. Almost might smack of a message sent? Ie, "get some skills, noobs"?

Same camp of folks remove (and call for removal) of fixed anchors? Karma? Ha ha. Just kiddin'...

Done the fix ropes thing a few times. Usually tie the rope in at the bottom. Unless someone was pretty darn motivated to rap down, untie, and ascend then pull up the rope, that'll cure the most casual rope grabber. But, if someone went up from the bottom, after doing the canyon? Surprised you guys didn't run into them, or, at least see each others' cars. Hate to admit it, but, when I'm in a more remote area, I take photo's of all the cars' plates parked near me, just in case....

Sorry you guys lost your rope. Maybe someone will read this and feel bad? Probably not after being accused of being a thief...etc....

[Brian in SLC]

But the question is how does property abandonment on BLM land managed under the guidelines this particular area is managed under. Individuals do not have the right to abandon private property on the public lands with an expectation of reclaiming it. Certainly not after 4 years, 11 months.

Didn't this issue come up especially with regard to Boulder Canyon and bolt removal? The bolters wanted the removal folks cited for theft? Sheriff said it was abandoned property? Something like that.

Where's outdoor lawyer at large Jim Moss when you need him...(on facebook!)...ha ha.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: If I'm going to steal something it will be the cooler of cold beer in the back of your truck... and not some stinky old rope that I have to lug out of the bottom of a canyon.




Reference for those who have never had the privilege, here is the Moki Exit. The route is probably only used by canyoneers doing the Mind Benders. Plenty of big holds, but the quality of the rock is highly suspect. I have the exit rated 5.4 with some exposure (4th class scrambling?).









The pics above are not mine.... I swiped them out of someones Picasa account.

[canyondevil]

Ok, since I started this mess, I hope if nothing else it is a learning experience for us and others in the future. I appreciate everyone's opinion and input. I probably should have worded the title of the thread differently. I do understand the concept of canyon trash, after all, in the canyon we cleaned up two useless slings at one anchor and adjusted the anchor at the final rap to avoid rope grooves. However, to our party it was fairly obvious that the rope was not trash. Those of us that were involved obviously have more of a biased opinion, since we were out the rope and the time/effort to set it.

That being said, lessons learned:

1. If setting a rope, leave a note.
2. If setting a rope, dont leave a good rope, as it may dissappear even with a note.
3. Wait to buy a new rope until you see if the seller is going to tear you a new one. Just kiddin, Tom. This is written in good fun, please dont spit on the new rope I ordered this morning!

Matt

[Scott Card]

Not a double standard. Every THING we leave in canyons is litter, but some of it is useful, such as webbing around anchors, bolts (in places), etc. So I remove non-useful litter. Like, I replace bright webbing with grey or black, often, but not always. Your argument, Scott, is one of "extension to extremes".

Perhaps not a double standard but certainly a judgment call where you become the judge potentially rendering a verdict of unknown consequences. You make a judgment based on your definition of "non-useful litter". That seems to be a broad judgment. What is that judgment based on? Your skill set or a rookie who is uncomfortable with the climb and exposure? Your skill set and/or what others should know if they are there? For those who have been to the Mind Benders, we know there is exposure at the exit and the landing won't be good if you slip. So again, I look at this issue perhaps a lot more forgiving than others. My assumptions are going to be, first, someone is there and will be using it. Now, if after a quick evaluation it looks weathered, old, untouched since the last storm, or obvious non-use (bird nest attached, bleached on one side...etc.) I will probably cut and remove. If it is obviously unsafe I may redo or cut, but my first assumption is not that it is "non-useful litter". Just my two pennies worth.

P.S. Sorry if I implied evil motivations. Didn't mean to. I have been known to pick up some canyon loot out of potholes, remove excess rap rings, duplicate webbing, etc.

[Sombeech]

BTW, we did find someone else's coiled rope near the exit. We didnt know if someone stashed it or if they dropped it. Since it was not ours, we left it there. Removing it was not going to benefit the community or place.

Interesting point, would this coiled rope be up for grabs under the same mindset as their fastened escape rope? Is it still "litter" if it's hidden?

[ratagonia]

Perhaps not a double standard but certainly a judgment call where you become the judge potentially rendering a verdict of unknown consequences. You make a judgment based on your definition of "non-useful litter". That seems to be a broad judgment. What is that judgment based on? Your skill set or a rookie who is uncomfortable with the climb and exposure? Your skill set and/or what others should know if they are there? For those who have been to the Mind Benders, we know there is exposure at the exit and the landing won't be good if you slip. So again, I look at this issue perhaps a lot more forgiving than others. My assumptions are going to be, first, someone is there and will be using it. Now, if after a quick evaluation it looks weathered, old, untouched since the last storm, or obvious non-use (bird nest attached, bleached on one side...etc.) I will probably cut and remove. If it is obviously unsafe I may redo or cut, but my first assumption is not that it is "non-useful litter". Just my two pennies worth.

P.S. Sorry if I implied evil motivations. Didn't mean to. I have been known to pick up some canyon loot out of potholes, remove excess rap rings, duplicate webbing, etc.

Perhaps it was rhetorical, but I will address the question of what my personal judgments are based on, if it pleases the court.

(Bunch of action at the Supremes today and this week - thus the reference, for those who missed the obscure reference.)

I think of canyons in at least two categories: trade-routes and obscure-routes. Each year a few get shifted from obscure to trade.

In trade-routes, I want to leave very nice anchors for the noobs who are sure to follow. So I take the time to clean things up well. I usually do not remove anchors, even if I do not use them, unless the downclimbs are very easy. I have re-rigged anchors for rappels because I found them ugly or worn, and then downclimbed rather than rappelling. At the moment, I am somewhat broken, so I rappel things I would normally downclimb - thank you assorted partners for your patience.

In things we consider more obscure, I would clean up anchors we don't use for rappels.

Whether and when something becomes a trade-route is pretty grey.

There are other people who might use that exit out of N Fork Robbers Roost, people we might more think of as Environmental Extremist Advanced Curmudgeonly Backpackers.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Ok, since I started this mess,

[Scott Card]

What? We are only on page 2.

[bbrim55]

Wow! I'm new to Bogley but this became a big deal really fast. My buddy and I drove down friday night and camped at the top of the mesa where the moki exit puts out. We started hiking the road to the trailhead just after 9 and at no time saw another vehicle or any sign of other canyoneers. We descended the canyon in just under five hours and followed a group of three footprints the entire time. When we got to the Moki exit our perception was that someone, whoever descended the canyon previous to us, had left a rope. Following canyon etiquette we cleaned it, as we have been doing throughout Utah for years. Again, at this time we had to indication of any other people in the area at the time.

I'm sorry our actions were interpreted as theft and we would be happy to return the gear to its rightful owner. Feel free to message me.

Next time, please don't jump to conclusions. The beauty of this site is that we can resolve these issues. Also, when attaching a rope to ascend it helps if its not a dynamic one. Lastly, if no one in your group is capable of an exposed 5.4 move and the alternative is having to spend the night trapped it would be wiser to plan canyons where such skills are not required.

[hank moon]

What? We are only on page 2.

Yes, the Dead Horse Act of 1997 clearly states:

"...whosoever and wherefore the shall of thingness that pages amplitude must exceed 5-ish prior to said designation..."

[hank moon]

Next time, please don't jump to conclusions. The beauty of this site is that we can resolve these issues.

The number of possible explanations for the given scenario was high, though some had reduced it to one based on assumption. Now it is back to one, with fun explanatory facts. I like this ending

[canyondevil]

Wow! I'm new to Bogley but this became a big deal really fast. My buddy and I drove down friday night and camped at the top of the mesa where the moki exit puts out. We started hiking the road to the trailhead just after 9 and at no time saw another vehicle or any sign of other canyoneers. We descended the canyon in just under five hours and followed a group of three footprints the entire time. When we got to the Moki exit our perception was that someone, whoever descended the canyon previous to us, had left a rope. Following canyon etiquette we cleaned it, as we have been doing throughout Utah for years. Again, at this time we had to indication of any other people in the area at the time.

I'm sorry our actions were interpreted as theft and we would be happy to return the gear to its rightful owner. Feel free to message me.

Next time, please don't jump to conclusions. The beauty of this site is that we can resolve these issues. Also, when attaching a rope to ascend it helps if its not a dynamic one. Lastly, if no one in your group is capable of an exposed 5.4 move and the alternative is having to spend the night trapped it would be wiser to plan canyons where such skills are not required.

pm sent. Thanks for responding.

[reverse_dyno]

Does that mean that when I go backpacking and decide to go fishing at a nearby lake I need to leave a note on my tent or ratagonia is going to clean up my entire camp? Or does he only do that when I camp in a Canyon? I backpack all over Utah and I need to know these things. If I am three days in and he takes my entire camp; tent, stove, food, extra cloths, I could end up dead! Does every piece of gear need a note on it or just the tent? How about the gear in the tent?

When I bear bag my food I also never leave a note on it, do I need to? If I do will the bears read it and not mistake it for litter?

These Utah rules are weird. I have stashed gear in many different countries and I have never worried about someone taking it; well at least not until I moved here and read this set of posts.

Thanks for the info!!!

[Brian in SLC]

Does that mean that when I go backpacking and decide to go fishing at a nearby lake I need to leave a note on my tent or ratagonia is going to clean up my entire camp?

If that was your tent up Butler Fork in BCC, with the case or two of empty beer cans, the stanky old mattress, and a few other items, sorry, but, it was an eyesore. I tossed the whole stinkin' mess in the dumpter by REI.

These aren't Utah rules. Fixed ropes are even considered abandoned by the BLM and they'll remove them in a a day, usually, if untended.

I'd say, quit treating our public land like your own private gear stash and everything will be just super...

Ha ha!

I see even the BLM has special considerations for geo-caches.

Actually, in most countries in Europe, they'll liberate your gear stashed in your car if you leave it unattended. Where you stashin' gear, some remote place in Antarctica?

Actually, ever come across an old tent in the backcountry, where it looks like someone hasn't been there in awhile? Gives me the willies...always worried about finding someone who's not there still hangin' around...if you know what I mean...

Blue tarp at high camp a few years ago on Aconcagua. Yeah, don't lift that thing up...pretty grim lookin' dude takin' a dirt nap...uck.

Lot of gear caches just turn into garbage after a few years....

[spinesnaper]

Excellent shade-tree lawyering, Ken.

But the question is how does property abandonment on BLM land managed under the guidelines this particular area is managed under. Individuals do not have the right to abandon private property on the public lands with an expectation of reclaiming it. Certainly not after 4 years, 11 months.

Clearly, I am declining to do the counter shade-tree lawyering required to refute your claim.

Tom

Shucks Tom, is that a compliment?

Unless BLM refers to another country, then yes this law applies as does the common law concept behind this. There actually is a public interest in not removing a rope a party has placed with the intent to return and use this to facilitate their safe exit from public land.

Removal of the rope might even be considered reckless, and the person removing the rope criminally liable if members of the party are injured in the process of climbing the rock face without the benefit of the rope. (I may not be an attorney but I am married to one)

How would you feel if you lowered your canyoneering partner 300 feet to the bottom of the last rap in Heaps to discover that some fellow citizen removed your stashed 300 ft rope?

Ken