Rope stolen in the Roost 3/24

[canyondevil]

Prior to decending Not Mindbender on Saturday (March 24), a few members of our party walked down to the Moki Exit and fixed a rope to protect our ascent on the way out. After a great trip through the canyon, we got to the exit and discovered that someone had taken the rope. No, we did not leave a note on the rope saying when we would retrieve it, but anyone with a brain should be able to figure out why it was there. I guess it is a lesson learned that canyon etiquitte no longer exists.

[ratagonia]

Not stolen. Propaganda. Exaggeration. You abandoned a rope in the wild, and someone cleaned up your trash.

Leaving a note might produce the result you desire.

Tom

[canyondevil]

In that case, I guess I should leave a note on my vehicle at the trailhead so someone doesnt take that too.

[Deathcricket]

Sorry to hear that bro, sucks! Hope it never happens to me.....

Hopefully whoever took it sees this message and decides to give it back to you.

[Iceaxe]

I didn't "steal" your rope.... but... I normally remove all trash I find in the wilds... and by trash I mean anything that doesn't belong in my humble opinion.

So... excessive webbing, water bottles, bolts, candy wrappers get removed. Vehicles parked at trailheads remain.

Your mileage may vary...

[penmartens]

It has been about 4 years since I left a rope hanging at the Moki exit. It used to be a 'safe' and suggested thing to do. In the past, it was a great way to manage risk. Apparently, that is no longer the case.
It was quite a shock to get there and find our rope missing. Our pleasant day suddenly turned into one of great frustration, stress, and risk. Luckily, one of our party unexpectedly stepped forward to say he was willing to 'give it a go'. Otherwise, we would have had a very long walk to a different exit that probably would have required a bivvy.
Call me old-fashioned, but the community has my solemn oath that I will never remove a rope left hanging for safety purposes at a sketchy climbout.
Penny Martens

[restrac2000]

The rope stolen title took me off guard. Stolen tends to imply malicious, selfish intent. Most rope removal like this is done for the benefit of community and place. That said...

Seems like there was a misunderstanding here that resulted in a bad experience. I have never heard that people leave a rope at the Moki exit for safety, but I haven't played out there extensively much in 3-4 years. To be fully honest, it does seem a note could have communicated the rope was for "safety purposes" and likely avoided the tension.

On a philosophical note, doesn't it seem that someone in a team should always know how to lead that exit considering how much beta exists? The route is a guaranteed probability, while as you learned, and has been well-documented for years, fixed ropes are highly uncertain in Utah.

Phillip

[hank moon]

it does seem a note could have communicated the rope was for "safety purposes" and likely avoided the tension.

x2

[canyondevil]

The rope stolen title took me off guard. Stolen tends to imply malicious, selfish intent. Most rope removal like this is done for the benefit of community and place.

I absolutely feel that it was done with selfish intent. To put others at risk by removing their risk management procedure is being selfish (in this case ours was setting a rope so noone will be at risk). Even if they thought they had removed trash that was left permanently, they should have realized that was not the case when they saw our vehicle at the top and left it there.

BTW, we did find someone else's coiled rope near the exit. We didnt know if someone stashed it or if they dropped it. Since it was not ours, we left it there. Removing it was not going to benefit the community or place. If someone lost one pm myself or Penny and we will tell you where you can find it.

[Felicia]

x2

X3


The license plate on your car could be considered a type of note.

[ratagonia]

I absolutely feel that it was done with selfish intent. To put others at risk by removing their risk management procedure is being selfish (in this case ours was setting a rope so noone will be at risk). Even if they thought they had removed trash that was left permanently, they should have realized that was not the case when they saw our vehicle at the top and left it there.

BTW, we did find someone else's coiled rope near the exit. We didnt know if someone stashed it or if they dropped it. Since it was not ours, we left it there. Removing it was not going to benefit the community or place. If someone lost one pm myself or Penny and we will tell you where you can find it.

Thank you for sharing your feelings.

How is a wilderness visitor supposed to identify that the rope is there for that purpose? Very easy - if it has a note on it. No note = just another piece of trash. The onus is on the litterer to state why they are abandoning stuff in the desert. That there was also a car at the top is ????? How is that supposed to provide pertinent information?

Take responsibility for your and your group's action, Devil. Don't attach B.S. to other people's actions - you have no way to know what their intentions were.

Also, you came upon some trash in the wilderness, and you left it there? How SELFISH! You have done a disservice to the canyoneering community, and to the place.

Tom

[ratagonia]

It has been about 4 years since I left a rope hanging at the Moki exit. It used to be a 'safe' and suggested thing to do.

Who suggested this?

Tom

[Scott Card]

I guess I am of a different mind set. Not every rope or piece of equipment is trash in my mind. If I see water ski rope, I cut and haul, like I have many times in the Subway. If I see climbing rope/ webbing dangling then I am likely going to leave it since I assume someone is below and wants to go back up or someone is exporing and will return and fetch the rope. Those who fix ropes to ascend back out of a canyon should beware of trash removal? Do you leave a note at every drop? The assumption that everything in a canyon is trash is kinda presumptious. Why don't you cut every piece of webbing at every anchor and ghost the canyon? Seems a bit of a double standard. In other words, when it suits you, you leave it. If you want it (Yay, canyon loot!!!) or deem it unnecessary, cut and remove. I guess my assumption in the above described set of facts would be someone will return and get it. Unsafe is another discussion entirely (water ski rope???).

Admittedly, a note should have resolved any confusion.

All that said, knowing that Tom and Shane and others like them are out there, I don't leave anything except anchor material even though it may help the next guy.

[canyondevil]

Ok, next time there will be a note. Lesson learned.

[oldno7]

I guess I am of a different mind set. Not every rope or piece of equipment is trash in my mind. If I see water ski rope, I cut and haul, like I have many times in the Subway. If I see climbing rope/ webbing dangling then I am likely going to leave it since I assume someone is below and wants to go back up or someone is exporing and will return and fetch the rope. Those who fix ropes to ascend back out of a canyon should beware of trash removal? Do you leave a note at every drop? The assumption that everything in a canyon is trash is kinda presumptious. Why don't you cut every piece of webbing at every anchor and ghost the canyon? Seems a bit of a double standard. In other words, when it suits you, you leave it. If you want it (Yay, canyon loot!!!) or deem it unnecessary, cut and remove. I guess my assumption in the above described set of facts would be someone will return and get it. Unsafe is another discussion entirely (water ski rope???).

Admittedly, a note should have resolved any confusion.

All that said, knowing that Tom and Shane and others like them are out there, I don't leave anything except anchor material even though it may help the next guy.

Well Said..........

[Brian in SLC]

Bummer.

Not having done that route, I couldn't imagine if the rope was obvious as something left to be usable later, or, abandoned gear.

Is this area prone to seeing casual hikers? Maybe? Seems like an odd thing to just stumble into. Isn't this kinda the middle of no where? Which, is why I could see someone "liberating" a rope if left.

The note is a great idear. Had a partner who was used to leaving a note, and, he had a preprinted label, laminated, he fixed to rope that he either had stashed in a bag ahead of time for a rappel, or, fixed. Said something to the effect of, "if you take this rope, we will die". Seemed effective as he'd never had a rope taken. We used it on the Lost Arrow Spire in Yosemite for the rappel in from the rim (rap in, climb up with your rappel line attached to you, then tyrolean back to the rim...good times). I think "most" folks at that point know you wouldn't remove such a thing but...there's an aspect of this situation that makes it hard to take the rope and....that's maybe partly a solution for fixing a rope...

Rap down and tie the bottom of the rope to something. Then, climb back out. My bet is most folks who'd take the rope wouldn't if they couldn't just pull it up.

Another solution folks mind not like....anchor over the rim. Both out of sight and harder to get to from the top.

Makes me wonder how "leadable" with gear is that moki step route? Would a handful of cams suffice for pro, or, is the rock too soft or devoid of pro options?

Does make me think that this might be a candidate for, ahem, a nice anchor that's out of sight but still workable for fixing a rope to. If you have to string a rope all the way up onto the rim and then some, it'll be visible and obvious.

I'd hope most of us would recognize a fixed rope rigged for escape and leave it be. However, I run into junky old ropes here and there and have cut some old ones loose to pack out, too.

Out of sight, out of mind....

[ratagonia]

I guess I am of a different mind set. Not every rope or piece of equipment is trash in my mind. If I see water ski rope, I cut and haul, like I have many times in the Subway. If I see climbing rope/ webbing dangling then I am likely going to leave it since I assume someone is below and wants to go back up or someone is exporing and will return and fetch the rope. Those who fix ropes to ascend back out of a canyon should beware of trash removal? Do you leave a note at every drop? The assumption that everything in a canyon is trash is kinda presumptious. Why don't you cut every piece of webbing at every anchor and ghost the canyon? Seems a bit of a double standard. In other words, when it suits you, you leave it. If you want it (Yay, canyon loot!!!) or deem it unnecessary, cut and remove. I guess my assumption in the above described set of facts would be someone will return and get it. Unsafe is another discussion entirely (water ski rope???).

Admittedly, a note should have resolved any confusion.

All that said, knowing that Tom and Shane and others like them are out there, I don't leave anything except anchor material even though it may help the next guy.

My explanation is for why one should not be surprised that stuff disappears, and should not make up evil motivations for the people who did the public service of removing litter from the canyon.

When I come across stuff, I make an evaluation. If it looks new and clean, I would probably leave it. Last time down Waterholes canyon near Page AZ, several drops were fixed with ropes. They were new, and it was on Navajo land, so our group left the stuff there.

Not a double standard. Every THING we leave in canyons is litter, but some of it is useful, such as webbing around anchors, bolts (in places), etc. So I remove non-useful litter. Like, I replace bright webbing with grey or black, often, but not always. Your argument, Scott, is one of "extension to extremes".

Ghosting canyons is all fine and good. Ghosting canyons with anchors already in place in canyons is all fine and good. Ghosting ... and removing the established anchors, not so good. Could put another party at risk. You could easily say the same thing about a fixed rope on the Moki steps. I have never seen a rope fixed there - I don't know if I would remove one if I found it, and it looked new. My modus operandi is more usually to complain about such things here, but maybe leave it in place. Ideally, I would be going back through there a day or two later, and would THEN remove it.

And the obvious point, if you fix ropes, and want them there when you get back, leave a note. Usually works.

Tom

[peakbaggers]

If I came across a rope as in their situation, I think it would be easy to determine it was there for a determined purpose and would think it safest to leave it alone. That being said however, logically, if you leave a clearly dated note & someone takes the rope, then they're a thief. Anything else (no note) leaves the entire situation up to the mental capacities, values & interpretation of the the person finding it. So if it's a rope I really care about, I'd leave a note, having learned something from this experience here.

[spinesnaper]

I have not used them yet but I bought a pack of tags with an attached wire twist. My plan is to write a note if I ever fix a rope for this purpose with a date, time, description of why the rope was fixed, a prayer for not removing it, and my name and phone number. If the rope is still removed with this type of information, it will be because the offender was illiterate or criminal.

Ken

[ratagonia]

If I came across a rope as in their situation, I think it would be easy to determine it was there for a determined purpose and would think it safest to leave it alone. That being said however, logically, if you leave a clearly dated note & someone takes the rope, then they're a thief. Anything else (no note) leaves the entire situation up to the mental capacities, values & interpretation of the the person finding it. So if it's a rope I really care about, I'd leave a note, having learned something from this experience here.

Let's make a distinction here.

Legally, even with a note, the items are abandoned and can be removed without being theft.

Morally, people will have different views. I think you have a much stronger moral case if you leave a note. Much weaker without.

Tom