Rope Choice

[dougr]

Great rope Brian. The Bluewater Canyonline is basically the same as the Sterling Canyontech. Burly stuff indeed. When these fancy schmancy ropes came on the market, I wasn't hugely interested due to cost. But their lives are so much longer, and the mental peace of mind when you look up and see that skinny rope chafing on an edge is worth a lot. Plus it seems technora ropes are getting downright reasonable in price, as cheap as the polys I was buying just last year.

Doug

[dougr]

Reply from Sterling regarding the C-IV's polypro core melting...

---------------------
Doug,
Here is some additional information from our rope engineer, Jim Ewing.

We don't have any, more technical, information than what you've already provided. I can add, however, that in order for a hot rappel device to cause damage to the polypropylene core the device would have to remain in contact with the specific spot for several seconds all while maintaining the melting point temperature. In other words, there has to be focused heat and pressure in order to heat up the Technora sheath to the point where it will reach a sufficient temperature to affect the core.

Basically, you would have to try pretty hard to heat the rope up to the point where it effected the core.

[Scott Card]

Reply from Sterling regarding the C-IV's polypro core melting...

---------------------
Doug,
Here is some additional information from our rope engineer, Jim Ewing.

We don't have any, more technical, information than what you've already provided. I can add, however, that in order for a hot rappel device to cause damage to the polypropylene core the device would have to remain in contact with the specific spot for several seconds all while maintaining the melting point temperature. In other words, there has to be focused heat and pressure in order to heat up the Technora sheath to the point where it will reach a sufficient temperature to affect the core.

Basically, you would have to try pretty hard to heat the rope up to the point where it effected the core.

Moral of the story, don't lock off on the last rap in Heaps.

[reflection]

Imlay Canyon Fire 8.3
100 ft. 3.85 lb
200 ft. 7.7 lb $160
300 ft. 11.55 $240

Sterling C-IV 9
100 ft. 3.2 lb
200 ft 6.4 lb $241
300 ft 9.6 lb $357

Imlay Canyonero 9.2
100 ft 4.2 lb
200 ft 8.4 lb $175
300 ft 12.6 lb $262

BW Canyonator 9.2
110 ft.
220 ft 9.16 lb $180
330 ft. 13.8 lb $270
___________
Data was pulled off web sites/stores. Canyons and Crags (RC) lists lengths not in 100/200/300, but in 110, 220. In my view some/many humans are brand oriented or connected. Some people will ONLY use BW ropes, or one that RC suggests or one that a WMC Canyon Director suggests (BW). Some that have used dynamic Sterling lines will try Sterling Canyon ropes. Those that know of or are connected with TJ/Imlay lines will use and try his ropes. Years back I got to try and report on Sterlings newest and first 9m canyon rope. Since then I've NOT kept up with all the lines. Above, I list four fairly popular cyn ropes, 8 & 9 m.

Sterling C-IV 9. Weight, feel and slide of the rope acts like an 8. Personally I like the light weight; seems sturdy enough; I've only slid on others lines though.
Canyon Fire 8.3 I have a 200 and two 120's and have used them extenisvely in wet and dry canyons. To date the ropes have never faltered and have a semi stiff feel.
Canyonero 9.2 I used one in Englestead last season and used another one in Behunin/Spry. Nice line to single strand on via big drops. Beefy strong A-1 rope.
Canyonator 9.2. I have NOT used the rope. Know many people connected to RC that have used and enjoy this line.

Best rope out there? The one that weighs next to nothing when I/we carry it - for hours. And the one that is sturdy, strong and risk free when rapping single strand.
Or, I'd rather carry a lite 8m rope and rap on a (heavier) sturdier 9m line. (rapping on the 8.3 Cyn Fire is 'no problem and no risk' in my view).

Cost, access/availability/shipping is another factor to some. Often, discounts exist. I still have old BW 8m canyon pro ropes. They are light but falter often - I'll never buy them again. When the 8.3 cyn fire came out it basically displaced all 8-9mm ropes in my view, and that's what I use most of the time - some times mixing a 9m rope for some ventures. Amazes me that some/so many raise their 9mm lines high above their head and pronounce this is the king/the best. But then when their ropes are wet and someone gets to carry the 'pig' as I call it, the smiles turn to frowns, OR, they always let someone else carry the rope.(this on hour long ventures). On short trips I see little problem or stress in 9m lines. Also interesting - the mind set - there are many viable options in canyon ropes, OR there is only or two ropes/brands I would use. And then the newbies that 'stress' and buy a 9m line and then for the first time pack it uphill for 2-3 hrs and then whine (with rope bag and line) at the 9-10 lbs. Some have no problem with this, I know, some folk are tough and will pack anything. But then there is the factor re enjoying the venture too & silly safety, oh my. Ropes and the personalities that push them - there are some strong opinions out there. The best rope, the best canyon, the best partner, the best president? The debate rolls on.

[ndonaldj]

https://www.google.com/fusiontables/...id=S445086Rsk7

Here is a google doc I made out of boredom, I hope the link works. It includes caving rope as well as canyoneering rope. Not all brands/models are included, just my favorites.

[ratagonia]

https://www.google.com/fusiontables/...id=S445086Rsk7

Here is a google doc I made out of boredom, I hope the link works. It includes caving rope as well as canyoneering rope. Not all brands/models are included, just my favorites.

Good effort, though it looks like your taste is on the fat side...

It would be more useful if your units were consistent... for Canyon Fire, the weight is 3.85; for C'yero 4.2. Elongation on C'yero is same as C Fire 1.2%.

Tom

[ndonaldj]

Good effort, though it looks like your taste is on the fat side...

This is because it includes ropes I use for caving as well.

It would be more useful if your units were consistent..

I just hadn't taken the time to convert the weight measurements on your ropes yet.. But thank you for doing it for me

[reflection]

Nice initial efffort. Note that in my earlier post, I listed the reported 100 ft. weight of the two Imlay ropes. I'd add the BW Canyon DS 9mm line to the list. Very popular rope. Weight and measuremuent wise though, it's closer to an 8.5 than a 9. PMI Sport Static lines are actually closer to 8.3-5. Premier line when one sets ropes and ascends. You also don't list the fairly popular and very expensive 8mm BW Canyon Pro and DS lines.

It's your list though; when I saw it my eye wanted to separate, canyon from caving and climbing lines, and to break out the 8, 9, 10 & 11 (or whatever lines). Those learning about ropes - that wish to get into or expand canyoneering for example - may get a blurred view re what lines to follow/buy/use.

For example: Canyon lines; 8-8.5mm A, B, C, D...; 9-9.5mm A, B, C, D..... Caving Ropes..... Climbing Ropes......and then possibly an asteritck on some ropes - can be used in both caving and canyoneering. (or you do your list as you wish, and others can build their own bridge.)

Personally, I think it's worthwhile having an open discussion re ropes. Long ago on the ACA site, the sacred cow of BW lines, disallowed any reasonable discussion of any other ropes. Cancord/Imlay, Sterling, PMI, all off the radar. Yikes, if one was a canyon leader (*most cyn leaders anyway) one couldn't discuss, own or use anything other than a sanctioned BW line; and long ago, one could only use a figure 8. Folk should know that some/many of the marketed 9mm lines are actually weight/measurement/hand wise, closer to 8 or 8.3 or 8.5. They should also know the weight of ropes, AND they should pay careful attention to what happens when these lines get wet. Nylon, Poly, sheaths stability.....and ropes have a personality and nuance. The PMI sport static is nylon, but the sheath is so tight that the water does not quickly permeate. Still the rope in my view is not a general canyon line; But it's a dream when ascending.

Heck, if I were to start all over, I'd go with the canyon fire and probably go not much further. In dry and wet canyons it's A-1. But I know some don't like or favor the line and stay with the BW brand. But then of course I've used Sterling ropes; their new canyon lines are nice in my view. ( many experienced canyoneers that search out and discover new canyons, only carry and use 8mm (8-8.5) lines. They trust the ropes, and the weight and packaging of the rope is important; carrying a lighter rope is more efficient; and in most peoples view, it's plenty safe). But then always, an exception to the rule - sometimes they/we carry 9mm ropes, for this or that venture or drop.

Last week I had a discussion with a neighbor re Stihl and Husky chain saws - we came to little agreement. Minutes later another neighbor came over and shifted the talk to this or that presidential candidate. Quickly we had 3 views. When some, in a martinet manner, try to slam down this or that BW rope on me or others, I often wonder, what happened to the corridor of multiple views? Same with rap devices. The Totem/another sacred cow? (or a lesson in how to twist ropes)

If there are other viable 8- 8.5 canyon ropes out there, I'd enjoy hearing and learning about them. (right now, it's basically Imlay, BW and Sterling poly ropes). The best? A mirage or illusion I think. A better canyon rope though? That's a more reasonable or relevant query. And is it OK to have a diversity of likes; or should we just march to the beat of A, B or C drummer?

[ndonaldj]

I will continue adding ropes to the list as I learn about them I suppose. Speaking of which, does anybody have an opinion on the Bluewater Canyon Pro DS? I had never heard of it but the specs are impressive, a Technora and Polyester sheath over a Dynema core! It sounds like its built like a tank. My only concern would be sheath slippage from the Dynema core.

Thank you for your input, here is an updated table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...S1CN3ctQmtEcVE

I didn't add a section for the sport of which each rope is used because that is mostly up to personal preference. And I separated them by diameter, and by units of measurement because I used the manufacturers units. I also didn't include climbing ropes because the world of dynamic is much bigger than static, there would just be way too many to add.

[Vegabond]

I will continue adding ropes to the list as I learn about them I suppose. Speaking of which, does anybody have an opinion on the Bluewater Canyon Pro DS? I had never heard of it but the specs are impressive, a Technora and Polyester sheath over a Dynema core! It sounds like its built like a tank. My only concern would be sheath slippage from the Dynema core.

I have used my 8mm BW Pro DS for about a year now. As a matter of fact, it has been my primary rope. Its been used in the Alps, Death Valley, Sierras and Zion. Still looks great however I would like to comment a bit more on the core slippage. After about a month of use, the sheath became longer then the core by about 9" on a 200' rope. I have not noticed any further slippage, and just recently cut of 9" of loose sheath and tapped it (melting doesn't work).

[ratagonia]

... and tapped it (melting doesn't work).

How do YOU finish the end and does it work well?

Tom

[dougr]

Vag, I'm not entirely happy with my taping of technora ends. I considered trying a torch for kicks, but probably the technora would still just kind of get crusty and not melt, as well as compromise a few feet of core near the end. Therefore, methinks a tough shrink wrap of some kind, like that used at the factory for technora ropes, would be best?

[Brian in SLC]

I've used super glue with some success on Kevlar.

I'd be curious to know what Sterling (or any rope manuf.) would recommend.

Anyone know?

[ndonaldj]

Could something like a sailmaker's whipping work to finish the ends? I know it can be used on kernmantle ropes, but have never tested it. Here is an example:
http://www.animatedknots.com/sailmakers/index.php

Or maybe something like this, if you're feeling ambitious:
http://www.treeworld.info/f15/new-en...ice-10362.html

[tcott]

I've used some of this stuff on technora ropes and it's held up pretty good. I always seem to pop the heat shrink off rapping off the end of the rope in wet canyons.

[oldno7]

Before cutting a technora sheathed rope--install ADHESIVE heat shrink tube to the rope, then cut in the middle of the tube.

I have a long length of BW Canyon Pro DS, very nice rope.(and costly)

[Bootboy]

I coat the last inch with Mcnett seam grip. While it's still wet, I put a piece of heat-shrink tubing on it. Super solid.

The splice on that tree rope would be impossible on a canyon rope. The sheath is woven way too tightly.

Awesome price on an awesome rope. I'd scoop up a few hundred feet. http://www.nwbackpack.com/products/sterling_canyon_c-iv.php

I love my C-IV. After a few uses it is holding up very well. It is smooth and feels great in you hands. It's gotten better with each use. It's not stiff and obnoxious like some of the polyester ropes but not so soft that it's a tangled, mushy mess either. The weight is awesome too. I have a 300' ICG canyon fire and like it ok. Good for long raps. I'd be curious to get a shorter piece of it for shorter raps to compare to my C-IV. So far, my sterling seems to be more durable. They are 6's when it comes to weight, wet or dry. The sterling dries significantly faster as well. It is more supple and goes into a rope bag with much less fuss.

[Bootboy]

Pelican ropeworks makes an 8mm technora cord with a polyester core that has an MBS of 6100lbs. Sheath heavy and very durable. I use it as vt cord for tree work and would be interested to use it as a short back up rope in canyons. It can be had online for about $.90/ft

[reflection]

Re BW Canyon Pro DS (Dual Sheath). Rope lists at Backcontry.com for $362.95 at 200 ft. I know folk that got the line the first year it came out for around $300. Those working in retail shops would do better. The line is stiffer than the Canyon Pro and generally does not scuff up as much as the canyon pro. But the big caveat for this line and the Canyon Pro (aside from the cost) is the sheath slippage, particularly when folk (heavy lads) are rapping single strand. I've seen brand new DS ropes come loose, sheath wise; the slippage was from 4-6 inches, or up to a foot. In Canyon Pro, in wet canyons, the slippage often occured on the ends of the line (sometimes elsewhere); with the DS I saw it in near middle sections of the rope. Generally it's a nice, versatile rope. I know some that say they have never had a problem with the line, and scoff when I suggest otherwise.

By way of comparison, I've never seen sheath slippage on PMI Sport Static, on any of the BW 9mm ropes and not on the Imlay Canyon fire or the Imlay 9mm lines. Ditto re the Sterling 9m ropes. And the cost? The new Sterling 8m line can be found on sale for around $200; and the Canyon Fire for less than that (at 200 ft.). Weight wise the Sterling just about matches the DS with the Canyon Fire a tad heavier. It's just money though and those with BW in their blood, can infuse their quiver with as many BW lines as they wish. (that happened to me a decade ago when BW canyon lines came out; but the luster faded;, Cancord Hercules/Imlay appeared and more recently the Canyon Fire.) Had I the money, would I put it (the DS) in my quiver? Probably not. I still recognize though that opinions vary and exeriences differ. I know some that have used Canyon Pro and Canyon Pro DS and claim they have NEVER had a problem. I salute you, but on my side I no longer pledge allegiance to those pricey/dicey ropes. (even though I still own and sometimes use, some of the canyon pro)

[rrv]

-Lastly, it becomes an unusable cord for lead climbing anymore because of all the sand that works its way into the core. the $$ that you would've spent on a replacement dynamic lead rope could have gotten you outfitted with two new static cords.

.

Really? The ropes these guys are recommending cost as much or more than dynamic ropes. I've seen cheaper 60 meter dynamic ropes for as little as $100