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Thread: Rope Choice

  1. #1

    Rope Choice

    I know it is not ideal. But beside the extra weight (and I suppose extra friction), is there any really serious drawback to canyoneering with 10mm dynamic climbing rope?

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  3. #2
    Only having to listen to some goofballs proclaim, "oohhh, bouncy bouncy". Ha ha.

    Like climbers never rappel on their ropes...silly.

  4. #3
    If you are doing anything with water the climbing rope will get a lot heavier and a lot stretchier. It will also wear your rope out pretty quick because of the stretch causing the rope to saw on the edges as people bounce down the raps.

  5. #4
    One other drawback is the stretch when doing a 100+ ft rope pull.
    Darin

  6. #5
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    We once used a dynamic 6mm on bridal veil falls over the last tier of 200feet - we pulled probably 15feet to get a full 1foot of the 8.3mm Imlay rope down. Big mistake, very tiring, never again.
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    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    But for normal, beginning canyoneering, yeah, not ideal but not really a problem. Go for it.

    T

  8. #7
    Trail Master skiclimb3287's Avatar
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    My first few canyons were done with a 10.5 dynamic climbing rope. Worked fine to start out with, but the extra weight and stretch got old real quick. I will never forget running Pine Creek with it. I felt like I was on a bungee cord for the final 100 ft rappel. Got a Canyon Fire shortly after that!

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  10. #8
    Thanks for the advice all. We will see how it goes. My next investment will be an 8.3mm Canyon Fire. Its what I learned on.

  11. #9
    I agree that it's killer on the pull. Otherwise they're generally fine, though I haven't taken them in water that much.
    --Cliff

  12. #10
    I would at least advise against dragging a dynamic rope through a wet canyon for various reasons.

    -Despite the "dry-treatment" it still soaks up the water to the point of saturation and becomes a magnate for sand, which in turn causes unecessary energy expenditure during the pulls. not good when the day marches on and you've become wet, cold, and tired.

    -Also, when the cord is wet, sandy and swelled, it eats through hardware (biners, rap/belay devices, and rap rings) at an alarming rate.

    -Lastly, it becomes an unusable cord for lead climbing anymore because of all the sand that works its way into the core. the $$ that you would've spent on a replacement dynamic lead rope could have gotten you outfitted with two new static cords.

    Those are the three main take-aways from my first exploit into canyoneering late late century when i dragged a 10.5mm dynamic and an 8.8mm static tag-line through Behunin. it was the driving factor behind our half-day "glorified hiking" juant - cum - daylong big-wall climbers survived by eating their pride epic through Behunin.

    serious business... best to get the static cords now, because face it, your going to enjoy the sport...

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by tcott View Post
    If you are doing anything with water the climbing rope will get a lot heavier and a lot stretchier. It will also wear your rope out pretty quick because of the stretch causing the rope to saw on the edges as people bounce down the raps.
    Really? Any data to support that?

    I'm just not seeing it. For example, out the door, a 10.5mm dynamic climbing rope made by Bluewater clocks in at 68 g/m. Their static rope of the same size is quite a bit heavier, like 78 g/m. That's before you add any water. And, for "stretchiness", the static rope has around 3.8% elongation, while the dynamic climbing rope has 7.2%. I'm not buying that folks can really "feel" that difference.

    Why, exactly, do dynamic ropes, a fair number of which have a dry treatment on them, suck up water at a higher weight, than a static rope? Given the same diameter of rope, I guess I'm not understanding the difference.

    And, if a dynamic rope is wet, don't they loose stretch typically? I don't think they become "a lot stretchier". Maybe the opposite?

    Geez, really, climbers rappel all the time and they don't haul static ropes around just to rappel on. And, stretch doesn't cause the rope to wear out faster, poor user technique does.

    I think the difference might be noticable when folks don't know how to rappel smoothly. If you're bouncing, either on purpose or because you've not rigged optimally, then you're not doing it correctly and the type of rope won't matter. Easier to blame it on a dynamic rope I suppose.

    And, all that extra stetch when you pull 100 feet of dynamic rope? At, what, five feet at a time if you're pulling it in big arm lengths, what's that? Works out to so little extra work I'm not sure I could calculate it, especially if you have a decently positioned anchor with low friction.

    That said, I'd much rather have a dedicated rope for canyons. Which, when I started doing a bunch of canyons, were retired climbing ropes (never to see a climb again anyhow). Once those got trashed, yeah, bring on the BW canyon pro's, Sterling, Imlay, etc.

    Sillyness!

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  15. #12
    The materials making up the dynamic rope seem to absorb more water to me. I used one for a few years and the weight jumped a noticeable amount when wet. I didn't notice a change in stretchiness due to water absorbing. I do notice dynamic stretching much more than static. This will chew the rope up more as it slides over an edge and makes the rap less controlled as you bounce around. I don't know the data or numbers around it... I just know the static is much better to me. No one is saying you can't do it with a dynamic... Just that the static is nicer.
    - Gavin

  16. #13
    Dynamic ropes get WAY stretchier when wet. I tried climbing on a rope that had recently gotten really wet, and there was so much stretch that we didn't dare climb at all that day, the rope stayed that stretchy for like a week too. It was a Bluewater double dry core. Dynamic rope absorbing more water would probably have to do with what the rope is made out of, a dynamic rope mainly made of Nylon it will absorb a good amount more than a static rope made of 100% Polyester. I've heard that if a rope is worn out and fuzzy it will absorb more water than a slick new rope too.

    Here, read this: http://www.zionadventures.com/ZBlog/...rb-more-water/
    "Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible" --Reinhold Messner

  17. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    Why, exactly, do dynamic ropes, a fair number of which have a dry treatment on them, suck up water at a higher weight, than a static rope? Given the same diameter of rope, I guess I'm not understanding the difference.
    Most dynamic/climbing ropes are made of nylon, which soaks up water like a sponge compared to hydrophobic fibers (e.g. Polyester, Dyneema) used in most canyoneering ropes. Once nylon fibers have absorbed a bunch of water, they become stretchier, weaker, and less abrasion resistant. Fortunately, these effects are temporary and nylon regains its original properties when dried. So-called "dry" climbing ropes have treatments that reduce these effects when new, but the treatment usually wears out long before the rope does.

    Some static ropes are also made of nylon, but most canyon ropes are made of more hydrophobic fibers such as polyester (e.g. Imlay Canyon Gear ropes) or other. BW canyon pro has a Dyneema core and polyester sheath.

    some links:

    http://www.zionadventures.com/ZBlog/...rb-more-water/

    http://www.sdplastics.com/nylon.html

  18. #15
    Ahhh...how the heck did I miss this testing? Nice!

    Nylon is nylon, but, concur that the different fibers make a difference.

    - The used climbing rope absorbed 42.4% of its weight in water.
    - The used canyon rope absorbed 22.4% of its weight in water.
    - The brand new canyon rope absorbed 19.1% of its weight in water.
    Chris says to say hi, Hank!

  19. #16
    Tom did a water absorption test last year showing that a dynamic climbing rope absorbed over 20% more water than a polyester canyon rope.

    Singing rock has an article showing even more water absorption, up to 59% of the original rope weight.
    http://www.singingrock.com/article.a...&nLanguageID=2

    Elongation on most canyon ropes is 1% - 2%, not 3.8%, making the 7.2% a much bigger difference. Also nylon gets significantly more stretchy when wet, I don't have stats on that just personal experience.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  20. #17
    I think that most of the water weight is water that clings to the rope due to surface tension rather than actually being from the saturation of the material. Dynamic climbing ropes tend to be made loose, giving them lots of space inside to keep water. Canyon ropes and some other static ropes tend to have a tighter weave that doesn't leave much space for water.

    Most of my ropes are nylon: 9mm PMI max-wear. It is very hard and stiff and I've never even noticed any weight difference when wet. My older 11mm Bluewater static (now retired) did gain enough weight to notice.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    And, for "stretchiness", the static rope has around 3.8% elongation, while the dynamic climbing rope has 7.2%. I'm not buying that folks can really "feel" that difference.
    I find the stretch to be the most noticeable when ascending (I'm also a caver so I do a fair bit of that). It can be frustrating at the bottom of a big pit when you have to ascend up 20 feet of rope before you ever leave the ground--a waste of energy. Once on the rope, though, the bounce doesn't make much difference as far as ascending or rappelling. If anything, I find a dynamic rope to be nicer to rappel on because it is so soft and smooth. That probably has more to do with the suppleness of the rope than the stretch. The main problem with a dynamic rope in a canyon is that they aren't as durable.

  22. #19
    I find the stretch to be the most noticeable when ascending (I'm also a caver so I do a fair bit of that). It can be frustrating at the bottom of a big pit when you have to ascend up 20 feet of rope before you ever leave the ground--a waste of energy. Once on the rope, though, the bounce doesn't make much difference as far as ascending or rappelling. If anything, I find a dynamic rope to be nicer to rappel on because it is so soft and smooth. That probably has more to do with the suppleness of the rope than the stretch. The main problem with a dynamic rope in a canyon is that they aren't as durable.
    You cave on dynamic?
    "Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible" --Reinhold Messner

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by tcott View Post
    Elongation on most canyon ropes is 1% - 2%, not 3.8%, making the 7.2% a much bigger difference. Also nylon gets significantly more stretchy when wet, I don't have stats on that just personal experience.
    Most? Let's look:

    Sterling
    Canyon Tech: 3.8%
    C-IV: 2.0%

    Bluewater
    Canyon Pro: 2.0%
    Canyon Pro DS: 1.4%
    Canyon Extreme: 2.6%
    Canyonline: 5.9%
    Canyonator: 1.28%
    Canyon: 3.8%
    Canyon DS: 4.9%

    Imlay
    Canyon: ??
    Canyon Fire: 1.2%
    Canyonero: ??

    Tom, fill in the blanks if you know 'em!

    As far as nylon getting more stretchy when wet? Not sure about that.

    Sterling says: “Another problem with wet ropes is that when core filaments become wet they lose their strength in addition to losing their dynamic elongation properties.”

    Singing Rock: “After soaking in water a rope becomes 4-5% longer, which can be correlated to the 5-10% increase of the impact force at the first fall on the Dodero machine.” "It has also been noted that the impact force at the first fall with the wet rope is significantly larger (5-10%), as if the rope had become more rigid than the dry one. This could be due to increased fibre-fibre friction as well as to the increased length of the rope. A rope that is already stretched is indeed more resistant to strain, more "rigid". The stretching - average 3-5% - measured on wet ropes just after removal from water is not negligible compared to the strain that occurs in the Dodero test (30-35%)."

    To me, that implys that a wet nylon climbing rope actually increases in length, and, loses its stretch, which is why the impact force is so much higher. Dunno for sure, though. Hank?

    If you're climbing, you don't really have much choice other than to use a dynamic rope. For canyons, there's a huge number of choices (which is great, actually).

    If all I was doing was waterfall rappelling, my canyon rope choice might be different than if I was doing the more sketchy type of exploration that some folks are doing, where a light rope is nice for space and weight restrictions, but, I'm not sure I'd want a super low stretch model. Bad anchors and anchoring might not be as tolerant to a mistake made on a low stretch rope...

    Variety is nice, and, the gear monger in me likes to have a number of tools in the tool box. Rope sellers like this too, I'm sure.

    The flip side of this, is, its a poor carpenter who blames his tools.

    Use what you got, and, be somewhat competent.

    Its kinda funny, though, that the only folks who complain about dynamic climbing ropes being stretchy or bouncy on rappels are canyoneers. Climbers just don't give it much of a thought. Its pretty rare to see a thread on any climbing forum about climbing ropes being "bouncy" on rappel (not sure I can recall one).

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