Breaking the "A" Team entry code

[uintahiker]

Did somebody say "A Team"?

[deagol]

If you had the chance to meet any of these guys face to face--you'd find your question rather "funny".

These are good people out enjoying this country possibly more than the rest of us combined.

I've found canyon politics over the last many years to be somewhat tiresome and repetitive.

Now doing canyons on the other hand, and laughing, carrying on and generally having a good time, seems to get done considerably less than politican'

Go out and get in some canyons with some of these guys, then maybe you can make an attempt at a funny thread, like this one was intended to be.

Very good post. I have followed the recent threads a bit and honestly can't see anything in there that would hurt anybody's feelings so much.

[oldno7]

combined age of the 4 people on one of our trips last week was around 230yrs.

[Scott Card]

combined age of the 4 people on one of our trips last week was around 230yrs.

[Iceaxe]

So... which one were you?

[Slot Machine]

Very good post. I have followed the recent threads a bit and honestly can't see anything in there that would hurt anybody's feelings so much.

[oldno7]

apparently some have not paid attention to my research on breaking the code, please feel free to use this as study material for further incursions and infiltration's...


So I thought I would bring this back to the top for further research.

[oldno7]

And on another note--I've known Ram for several years, we rarely do canyons together due to scheduling conflicts and not much else.

He has NEVER refused me information on inquiries I've made. A lot of the information has been minimal on selected areas, but I prefer that.

The guy has a memory like no one I have ever witnessed(he claims it's shrinking) He can hand out the most detailed description of most all canyons he's done, somewhat amazing.

I've never been witness to a list of folks he has "not" shared info with, but I've been witness to a whole lot he has.

Just sayin'

my opinion--Rams is one who unites, don't confuse him with tom, who divides.

[RAM]

And on another note--I've known Ram for several years, we rarely do canyons together due to scheduling conflicts and not much else.

He has NEVER refused me information on inquiries I've made. A lot of the information has been minimal on selected areas, but I prefer that.

The guy has a memory like no one I have ever witnessed(he claims it's shrinking) He can hand out the most detailed description of most all canyons he's done, somewhat amazing.

I've never been witness to a list of folks he has "not" shared info with, but I've been witness to a whole lot he has.

Just sayin'

my opinion--Rams is one who unites, don't confuse him with tom, who divides.

I appreciate the kind words. Alas i am firmly in Crickets Douchebag closet....and Yetis selfish hoarder of his entitlement....the elitist taunter and much much more. Alas I am not alone in these places. Many people of excellent character and generous qualities are relegated to these same little boxes by those that barely or don't know them at all.

I think you were being kind to me in setting me up to share the "Tom" I know so well and for many years now. It is clear to all that you two have a major conflict and a dislike for each other. This was big of you to give me this opportunity.

I often admire qualities in people that they don't advertise for all to see. I suspect it may surprise some to know that Tom is one of the most generous people I have ever known. He has clearly been a major giver of himself and his resources, even when he was struggling with a fledgling business and the chance for failure was very real. Its easier to give and share when you you have it in abundance. It is quite another thing when you don't

He has taught me important lessons in my life. His willingness to take criticism and not automatically react in defensiveness. To consider what is said. Take what he can and grow, when he sees the words as having validity.....and the ability to let it go and not take it to painful heart when it is on mark or off mark or the meanness of someone with their own issues. He taught me that as a public figure, you are fair game. I consider this BIG and a self confident display of grace.

We all know that Tom can be challenging with the way he says things and has hurt the feeling of many. I would write him and say..."WHY did you have to say it that way?" he would then see what he didn't see before. His own thick skin doesn't always register the thin skins most of us have. But for him, it is all about teaching and teach he does. mostly without any compensation beyond his own generosity. He has made major impacts in people's life's. I don't see Tom as a "divider, in spite of occasionally undiplomatic commentary, I see Tom as a GIVER and I see it ALL the time! Sometimes we get a little too "full" of each other and we need a break from each other. Each of us can be overbearing, but when all is said and done......I got his back. He's got mine.
I am safer and my world is bigger.

If you look, you will see many things to admire, that he doesn't promote...I invite others to share examples of Tom's kindnesses. And while your at it. Throw in some Kurt stories of his grace and maybe anyone else that shows qualities you are drawn to. Lord knows, we could use a bit of positive in what has been a swamp lately. Thanks again Kurty.
Ram

[oldno7]

glad I could offer up the segway.

always appreciate your input, even when we are on opposite sides of an argument.

and as you will note--my opinion, was posted at the bottom, under "my opinion" glad you shared yours.

[RAM]

glad I could offer up the segway.

always appreciate your input, even when we are on opposite sides of an argument.

and as you will note--my opinion, was posted at the bottom, under "my opinion" glad you shared yours.

Have not spent much time with Kurty, but the few days I did, I saw him hobble his way thru with a bad foot. No complaining. In some physical stuff like Inferno too. I guess he finally went to the doctor and it turns out he has a broken ankle. Or was it just a broke foot? Either way, tough hombre.

[dallison]

I am not going to change anyone’s mind that has posted on this thread or any of the other similar ones that have popped up in the last week. I’m speaking to those of you, like me, that have little exposure to the greater canyoneering community, and trying to make some sense out of the arguments/conversations here on the board. Here is my outsider opinion:

A-team: It doesn't exist in the form that it is usually discussed here on Bogley. Reading through the board, you would think there is some sort of high school-like, cool-kids group, whose members think they are better than everyone else. In my experience, this does not exist. There is a “group,” however, it is not small and it definitely isn’t exclusionary. Regardless of how they are portrayed by many here on Bogley, this is NOT a “we’re better than you” kind of thing. Rather, they are among the friendliest, most welcoming group I’ve ever encountered. Two years ago I went to Freeze Fest on a last minute whim. None of my typical canyon partners wanted to endure that kind of pain, so as result, I left for the North Wash not knowing anyone that would be there. Driving into the Sandthrax campsite, I had no idea how I would be welcomed. I just figured that worst case, if no one wanted me around, I could do some solo hiking in the area and then drive back home. That’s definitely NOT how it went down. Within minutes of arriving at Sandthrax, several of those who were already there (including notable members of the mythical A-team), welcomed me and invited me to jump in with their group for the next day. Even though I was brand new to that style of canyoneering, not one of them treated me like an outsider or looked down on me for poor technique or skills. I had such a good time, I decided to do it again this year. Same experience. I don't think my experience was unique—in my observation, that’s how they treat everyone.

Ask-don’t tell: Obviously exists—BUT, if their goal is to try and keep the canyons in question secret, they’re doing a terrible job. If you’re even somewhat polite, they’re going to invite you to come along on many of their trips. In fact, I can tell that many of those that have the beta ENJOY taking new-to-the-canyon-people through. I personally saw many of the most veteran canyoneers (Ram and Malia in particular) spending time doing canyons that they have undoubtedly descended dozens of times before, just to accommodate us new people.

I hate seeing all of the misinformation spewed out regarding people who are not deserving of such derision. I’m quite sure if you take the opportunity to descend canyons with any of the many fine canyoneering people I have met at FF the last 2 years, you would come away with an impression of them that is very similar to mine. You would also probably have an understanding (maybe even *gulp* appreciation) of their methods.

Dave

[Iceaxe]

I hate seeing all of the misinformation spewed out

What is this misinformation you speak of? Care to point to an example?

I have followed the threads closely and I haven't seen any misinformation. I see two completely different philosophy's on how beta should be dispensed, but I haven't seen any misinformation. Don't try to read more into it then actually exists.

I don't think anyone said the A team or the B team were not a bunch of fine individuals. There are just differing opinions of what is best for the sport.

YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Deathcricket]

I appreciate the kind words. Alas i am firmly in Crickets Douchebag closet....and Yetis selfish hoarder of his entitlement....the elitist taunter and much much more. Alas I am not alone in these places. Many people of excellent character and generous qualities are relegated to these same little boxes by those that barely or don't know them at all.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't know you, never met you, or have any opinion about you one way or the other. Every post of yours has led me to believe we'd get along fine in real life.

I've never seen you berate noobs and discourage them from posting because they don't wear helmets, or wore a helmet but not have the strap clipped. I've never seen you call people dangerous or put down their skillsets for myriad of imagined offenses. I've never seen you yell at innocent people who post pictures of canyons they weren't supposed to, because some vista or rock formation might be recognizable. I've never heard you requesting TR's to be pulled because you feel you own this canyon, or call people out because they ask about canyons they found on google earth. I've never heard.... Never mind this list could go on all night, haha.

Anyways too long a post now... Point is, I don't think "you" personally have the elitest big-dig-swingin-I'm-cooler-than-you attitude some of your associates do. And believe me those people know who they are, haha. I'm not good at tolerating people I dislike, pretty open book kinda guy. With you and me it's probably just a difference of opinion, I'd rather encourage everyone to post everything, and you might wanna have it censored a bit more to preserve canyon integrity. But you've never rubbed me the wrong way or led me to believe in any way you're a douchebag, you've always been very respectful to me and respected by me. And even though we might not agree I still respect your viewpoint and see the merit of it.

I think it's all how you approach the situation and how you treat the people you disagree with. Give out respect and you'll always get respect back.

You say Tom has taught you a lot over the years, too bad he didn't learn a couple lessons from you as well in the art of diplomacy.

[Brian in SLC]

[Renatomic808]

No one wants to canyoneer with me! Is it because I'm C-team rank? Though JJ made it out last march, and is planning a return sometime this month. I will try to up my skills. I'm asian, so i'm sure i can do the chicken dance.

[airman]

I am not going to change anyone’s mind that has posted on this thread or any of the other similar ones that have popped up in the last week. I’m speaking to those of you, like me, that have little exposure to the greater canyoneering community, and trying to make some sense out of the arguments/conversations here on the board. Here is my outsider opinion:

...

I hate seeing all of the misinformation spewed out regarding people who are not deserving of such derision. I’m quite sure if you take the opportunity to descend canyons with any of the many fine canyoneering people I have met at FF the last 2 years, you would come away with an impression of them that is very similar to mine. You would also probably have an understanding (maybe even *gulp* appreciation) of their methods.

Dave

X2 - very well said! Thank you for saying it. That has been my experience as well. No secret hand shakes, sobriety tests, contracts, tracking devices, etc. I have found Ram and Tom to be very generous and helpful in their willingness to share information. It's amazing how kind and thoughtful these guys are when you treat them like you would want to be treated.

[Scott Card]

I fully support the A-Team. I am one of them ..... but only because I feed the team when I am around. I have been on many adventures with "my" team in canyons that I probably had no business being in, but for the fact I was with the A-Team. Here is my contribution. I pack heavy, and break out the dutch ovens in camp when many of the other A-teamers are trying to convince themselves that ramen or couscous is food. Once the roast, clam chowder and various cakes/cobblers are devoured, I am accepted in full fellowship and become a card-carrying member every time. You gotta be a team player. Find your niche. The A-team will let you in. I am proof.

Seriously, what others have said. The "a-teamers" I have known are great. And I have no problem with keeping a canyon under wraps if asked. I see two ways to find canyons, do all the stuff that is online first and then start looking on your own for new stuff, or hook up with those who look and find. I guess a third way is to ask about some crack in the earth you spotted from your desk on Google Earth but please don't whine if you don't get the answers you want.

[Byron]

Funny...I've been here a year and am completely unfamiliar with this "A team" stuff. I presume it's a few (or quite a few) canyoneers who have info on lots of different canyons? Secret spots? A variety of knots? I laugh at people who strut around like peacocks, because I'm the biggest peacock of them all!!! Everyone seems friendly enough around here to me...and it seems that the reviews of the fests are good, perhaps some are a bit intimidated?

It seems to me that someone treating others like dirt, acting like his dookie doesn't stink would get unpopular REAL QUICK....is there someone like that around? Or do we not talk about it? Oh well, there are snobs in just about every sport and maybe as time goes by I'll be able to figure out who they are...if they even exist around here? I hope I never run into the "I'm the shit" attitude personally, because I'll ridicule it...out loud. I don't like it much when someone is more stuck up than I am.

[Deathcricket]

Funny...I've been here a year and am completely unfamiliar with this "A team" stuff. I presume it's a few (or quite a few) canyoneers who have info on lots of different canyons? Secret spots? A variety of knots? I laugh at people who strut around like peacocks, because I'm the biggest peacock of them all!!! Everyone seems friendly enough around here to me...and it seems that the reviews of the fests are good, perhaps some are a bit intimidated?

It seems to me that someone treating others like dirt, acting like his dookie doesn't stink would get unpopular REAL QUICK....is there someone like that around? Or do we not talk about it? Oh well, there are snobs in just about every sport and maybe as time goes by I'll be able to figure out who they are...if they even exist around here? I hope I never run into the "I'm the shit" attitude personally, because I'll ridicule it...out loud. I don't like it much when someone is more stuck up than I am.

If you have a group of friends and don't know who the big jerk is? Chances are it's probably YOU!!!!!