Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 109

Thread: Pot Shot & Sand Trap Techniques

  1. #61
    It looks like the hose works sometimes. PG Rob got a 50% success rate in No Kidding. When it doesn't work, what part doesn't; slides down rope, jams,...?

    Tom split the hose for ease of application. It sounds like maybe a hose without the split is better. True?

    Tom is using about a 3 foot length. Steve, what length are you using? Do you split the hose?

    Ideas:
    I like the idea along the lines of the technora sheath. I am getting used to carrying the hose, but am not liking it much. It is, admittedly, an obsessive/compulsive thing on my part.

    Everyone seems to be attaching the protective sheath to the pull rope which doesn't negate the friction on rock when emptying the trap. What about attaching the sheath(s) to the trap itself and having both the rap rope and the pull rope going through a sheath.

  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Posts
    Many
     

  3. #62
    Are you losing valuable rope friction with the use of the hose and/or sheath on the rap rope? Seems that the pull over the edge with the pull cord is not that much wear and tear on the rock. Opinions? (I guess some of the answer is how far back from the edge the anchor is)
    Life is Good

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens
    It looks like the hose works sometimes. PG Rob got a 50% success rate in No Kidding. When it doesn't work, what part doesn't; slides down rope, jams,...?
    The reason it didn't work was geometry of the pull. You easily can find yourself with 2 major friction points that are more than 3 feet apart. The pull was still fine... you just lose the ability to eliminate rope grooves at 1 of the friction points. I don't think I would ever use it on the rappel rope. On that line, friction is your friend.
    Name:  2 Friction Points.JPG
Views: 621
Size:  16.7 KB

  5. #64
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Quiet and charming: Mount Carmel
    Posts
    7,158
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Card View Post
    Are you losing valuable rope friction with the use of the hose and/or sheath on the rap rope? Seems that the pull over the edge with the pull cord is not that much wear and tear on the rock. Opinions? (I guess some of the answer is how far back from the edge the anchor is)
    It's complicated.

    Yes, you lose valuable rope friction over the edge, so the weight in the SandTrap needs to be somewhat higher. Not usually a problem. Overall, better to toss more sand on the SandTrap than to create grooves.

    While it is not as bad as pulling the entire wet-and-sandy rope through a ring, SandTraps do create rope grooves on both the rappel side and the pull side. For several reasons:

    1. Sandtrap worthy canyons tend to be in very soft rock which grooves easily;
    2. the sections of pull cord and rappel rope that touch the rope tend to be slightly wet and fully sandy, so they have the maximum groove-cutting potential;
    3. The rappel rope tends to bounce up and down somewhat in the process of the rappel. The Trap generally needs to pull UP to the max-weight position, which tends to happen over the course of the rappel, and moves 12 - 24 inches;
    4. The pull cord tends to cut grooves too. While there is not a LOT of action on that side, while it is being pulled it requires a pretty hard pull (ie, body weight, sometimes twice body weight) to pull the trap, and that means the dirty pull cord where it crossed the rock will move 24-36 inches at that high tension, which creates grooves. The hose on that side helps decrease the force required considerably.

    It does not matter how far back the Trap is. What counts is the angle the rope changes through going over the edge.

    Tom

  6. #65
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    We're all here, because we ain't all there.
    Posts
    19,424
    Do you guys attach the pull side hose/protection to the sandtrap in any way or does the last person set it in position, or both?

    As long as the hose/protection is attached to the trap, the pull rope should slide through the protection up to the moment the trap releases.

  7. #66
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Quiet and charming: Mount Carmel
    Posts
    7,158
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Do you guys attach the pull side hose/protection to the sandtrap in any way or does the last person set it in position, or both?

    As long as the hose/protection is attached to the trap, the pull rope should slide through the protection up to the moment the trap releases.
    Well, generally it is set up on the pull side whenever the pull side is set up. Might be last, might be earlier.

    The problem is on the rap side. The point of contact is often at and over the lip. When the rapper raps, the hose is held in place by tension in the rope, but it can drop down if tension is released. And it can be in the way of getting ON the rope, or of starting the rappel, or both. So, not an ideal tool, maybe the new thingee will work somewhat better.

    Easier on the SandTrap and Fiddlestick, as the rope does not need to be pulled through.

    Tom

  8. #67
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    We're all here, because we ain't all there.
    Posts
    19,424
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Well, generally it is set up on the pull side whenever the pull side is set up. Might be last, might be earlier.

    The problem is on the rap side. The point of contact is often at and over the lip. When the rapper raps, the hose is held in place by tension in the rope, but it can drop down if tension is released. And it can be in the way of getting ON the rope, or of starting the rappel, or both. So, not an ideal tool, maybe the new thingee will work somewhat better.

    Easier on the SandTrap and Fiddlestick, as the rope does not need to be pulled through.

    Tom
    I guess my question wasn't very clear. If you go back and look at my technora device, it has a small piece of cord attached.

    --if that small cord is attached to the front of the trap--the rope will slide more freely.

    cord needs to be adjusted for each situation but it will hold the protection in it's intended position, right up to the release of sand from the trap.

    cord could also be attached to a part of the stein when fiddlesticking.
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  9. #68
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Quiet and charming: Mount Carmel
    Posts
    7,158
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    I guess my question wasn't very clear. If you go back and look at my technora device, it has a small piece of cord attached.

    --if that small cord is attached to the front of the trap--the rope will slide more freely.

    cord needs to be adjusted for each situation but it will hold the protection in it's intended position, right up to the release of sand from the trap.

    cord could also be attached to a part of the stein when fiddlesticking.
    yes, but...

    I was thinking a more-universal system would include a loop of P-cord on each end of the sleeve, with a plastic biner. Use that to do a Bachman knot up and down. That way it could be placed anywhere along the length, rather than within X length of the SandTrap or Fiddlestick.

    T

  10. #69
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    We're all here, because we ain't all there.
    Posts
    19,424
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    yes, but...

    I was thinking a more-universal system would include a loop of P-cord on each end of the sleeve, with a plastic biner. Use that to do a Bachman knot up and down. That way it could be placed anywhere along the length, rather than within X length of the SandTrap or Fiddlestick.

    T
    If it is not attached directly to the trap/fiddlestick it would not be effective.

    No additional hardware is needed.

    Include a 20' piece of cord with the technora velcro device and all bases are covered, pull and rap sides.

  11. #70
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Quiet and charming: Mount Carmel
    Posts
    7,158
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    If it is not attached directly to the trap/fiddlestick it would not be effective.

    No additional hardware is needed.

    Include a 20' piece of cord with the technora velcro device and all bases are covered, pull and rap sides.
    I'm not seeing what you're saying. Prusiks to the rope seems like the most flexible system, to me.

    What if the trap is further than 20' from the edge that need padding?

    Tom

  12. #71
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    We're all here, because we ain't all there.
    Posts
    19,424
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    I'm not seeing what you're saying. Prusiks to the rope seems like the most flexible system, to me.

    What if the trap is further than 20' from the edge that need padding?

    Tom
    I think we speak 2 different languages for sure, my language tries to make the complex--simple; yours is to make the simple--complex.

    If the edge needing protection is 25' away from the trap, you need 25' of usable cord.

    The protection cannot merely be attached to the rope with a hitch because then when the rope moves the protection moves.

    The set up I just took pictures of has the technora sheath velcro'd tightly around the rope but I can pull the pull side through the sheath still, because it is anchored to the trap.

    It's a nice day--go out in your yard, set it up and see if it makes any more sense.

  13. #72
    Thanks for all the input and especially for all the drawings and photos. They are very helpful since we can't all be face-to-face.
    We have a trapping canyon planned in a couple weeks. I think I'll rig something like 'the technora attached to the trap' and see how that goes. I'll report back.
    Yes, friction is our friend when rapping on these types of anchors, so perhaps a slick inner surface hose isn't the way to go on the rap side. What about a fabric? I wouldn't think that would cut down on the friction much.
    Oldno, did you buy the technora sheath or did you sew it yourself?

    So, here's another question: Tom said traps aren't usually stacked, but potshots have been used on top of traps. What about using traps side by side on a flat surface, similar to 2 anchor points that climbers use?

  14. #73
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    We're all here, because we ain't all there.
    Posts
    19,424
    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens View Post
    Thanks for all the input and especially for all the drawings and photos. They are very helpful since we can't all be face-to-face.
    We have a trapping canyon planned in a couple weeks. I think I'll rig something like 'the technora attached to the trap' and see how that goes. I'll report back.
    Yes, friction is our friend when rapping on these types of anchors, so perhaps a slick inner surface hose isn't the way to go on the rap side. What about a fabric? I wouldn't think that would cut down on the friction much.
    Oldno, did you buy the technora sheath or did you sew it yourself?

    So, here's another question: Tom said traps aren't usually stacked, but potshots have been used on top of traps. What about using traps side by side on a flat surface, similar to 2 anchor points that climbers use?
    It would be a frightful day if I attempted to sew anything. I posted a link a ways back to the company that manufactured these.

    I think multiple traps would work great as long as time is spent making sure they are equalized. The more inline, the better.(ie. one in front of the other, rather than side by side)

    Could run into complications on the pull?

  15. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens View Post
    Scott,
    What did your group do, if anything, to avoid the problems that have been cited for No Kidding?
    I am assuming that Spidey did the little down climb that PG Rob talked about. Anything else?
    I down climbed a couple drops that day as the LAMAR. We might have even used my 4 and 7 year olds as LAMAR at a drop. I can't remember great canyon though, my boys loved it. Oh Yeah SANDTRAP RULES!!

  16. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey View Post
    We might have even used my 4 and 7 year olds as LAMAR at a drop. I can't remember great canyon though, my boys loved it.
    In case anyone's heart just skipped a beat, HE'S KIDDING. Dude...
    Life is Good

  17. #76
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Quiet and charming: Mount Carmel
    Posts
    7,158
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    It would be a frightful day if I attempted to sew anything. I posted a link a ways back to the company that manufactured these.

    I think multiple traps would work great as long as time is spent making sure they are equalized. The more inline, the better.(ie. one in front of the other, rather than side by side)

    Could run into complications on the pull?
    What situations are you imagining where double traps would be useful, , ie, a better solution than using the same sand on one trap?

    It's an interesting idea - I'm just having trouble coming up more than one or two obscure situations where it would prove useful, so I am wondering what situations you are thinking of where it would offer advantages.

    Tom

  18. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey View Post
    I down climbed a couple drops that day as the LAMAR. We might have even used my 4 and 7 year olds as LAMAR at a drop. I can't remember great canyon though, my boys loved it. Oh Yeah SANDTRAP RULES!!
    When using the 4 and 7 year olds as backup, did you use them stacked, side by side, or in tandem? I've got a couple grandkids about those ages.

  19. #78
    What is the fiddlestick you two are talking about?

  20. #79
    Tom,
    The situations I was thinking of are obscure. If I told you a specific place then you would probably want to see a picture and I don't have time to dig it up. I was thinking of a wide flat area with no lip. Say, if the last rap in Inferno didn't have the pot hole to use as an anchor.
    I am just trying to further the conversation, here.

  21. #80
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    We're all here, because we ain't all there.
    Posts
    19,424
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    What situations are you imagining where double traps would be useful, , ie, a better solution than using the same sand on one trap?

    It's an interesting idea - I'm just having trouble coming up more than one or two obscure situations where it would prove useful, so I am wondering what situations you are thinking of where it would offer advantages.

    Tom
    The sleeve attached to the trap worked didn't it

    Really just playing along(multiple traps), interesting thoughts though, you must agree.

    I don't have it yet, but I'll try to come up with a potential scenario.

    Just having these conversations can only open our minds and sharpen our thought process'

    Being content and "knowing" something can only be used in a certain way, hence closing down all new conversation, can't be too advantageous.

    Penny spelled out that there needs to be designations between tried and proven methods vs. ideas. Seems reasonable to me.

Similar Threads

  1. [News] Tourist Trap
    By Iceaxe in forum Canyoneering
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 02-06-2012, 07:16 PM
  2. Family Trap Shoot 2010
    By Sombeech in forum Hunting & Shooting
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-06-2010, 07:53 PM
  3. Lee Kay Hosting Its First Annual Home Free Trap Shoot Event
    By huntingstar in forum Hunting & Shooting
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-16-2008, 12:05 PM
  4. It's a trap.
    By Sombeech in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 12-07-2007, 10:30 PM
  5. SAR techniques come under fire
    By Iceaxe in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-26-2006, 09:16 AM

Visitors found this page by searching for:

potshot anchor

how to set up a canyoneering sand trap

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •