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Thread: Pot Shot & Sand Trap Techniques

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens View Post
    Scott,
    What did your group do, if anything, to avoid the problems that have been cited for No Kidding?
    I am assuming that Spidey did the little down climb that PG Rob talked about. Anything else?
    Here is the short answer. I don't recall any problems. We had Spidey. Honestly, we used the sand trap at every rappel. I can't remember if Spidey downclimbed or not. In canyons there is Ram who remembers everything and there is me who remembers what a fun day I had. In other words, I have to see a canyon at least twice to start remembering details of each drop. I am terrible at the little details of the canyons on my first descent. Sorry about that. Maybe Dan remembers.
    Life is Good

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  3. #42
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canyondevil View Post
    I see that PG only connected the rappel line to the bottom potshot and just piled the others on top. Wouldnt it be better to run the rap line through a rapide on each of the potshots (blocked on the bottom potshot) and pull the blocked side of the rap line through all rapides before pulling the potshots?
    We tried that. They become hopelessly tangled. It would be more secure, but less cleanable.

    T

  4. #43
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens View Post
    It looks like we have pretty well covered this subject.
    I am still wondering how often protection on the pull is being used for the trap. Are people using the hose? Are they using something else? Some have suggested using 1 inch webbing as a sleeve for the pull. I am wondering about a kevlar sleeve.
    I see that Oldno is back. Do you have anything to add since your trip last week?
    Hi Penny

    Heres what I have and don't have.

    I have a technora sheath with velcro to protect on pulls

    I would think Tom could replicate something similar.

    Weight and bulk is virtually non-existant.
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  5. #44
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Hi Penny

    Heres what I have and don't have.

    I have a technora sheath with velcro to protect on pulls

    I would think Tom could replicate something similar.

    Weight and bulk is virtually non-existant.
    BlueWater? or homemade? I would make it a lot wider, so the rope would be looser in it, so it can be tied to the retrieval strand top and bottom, and when pulled the rap strand would easily slide through it. Of course, it does not protect the rock during the pulling phase, in a normal "pull-through" situation.

    Tom

  6. #45
    Devil,

    When stacking potshots, you have 2 components. The first being the bottom potshot, which is the anchor, like the bottom rock in a deadman. The 2nd part being all other potshots, which are there to add friction and weight. The placement of part 1 and part 2 need to be well thought out. There is a lot more that goes into placement than piling potshots on top.

    Rob

  7. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by PG Rob View Post
    Devil,

    When stacking potshots, you have 2 components. The first being the bottom potshot, which is the anchor, like the bottom rock in a deadman. The 2nd part being all other potshots, which are there to add friction and weight. The placement of part 1 and part 2 need to be well thought out. There is a lot more that goes into placement than piling potshots on top.

    Rob
    My bad, I should have said "stack" instead of pile. Didnt mean to strike a nerve. I was merely brainstorming ideas to improve an imperfect system.

  8. #47
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    My ideas on the sandtrap involved attaching BD talons to the pull line via a prussic cord or better yet--to adapt to length, a purcell prussic.

    In tostado mode--fold sandtrap length wise, fasten talon in weakness/crach/whatever.

    Fold sandtrap over talon and add sand to solidify and hold talon in place.

    repeat on other side.

    Would only be good on slickrock with a crack or some feature to attach talon to.

    pulling on pull cord dumps sand--as usual and disrupts talons from there holding spot.

    Could also be used in taco mode in the right spot.

    I showed this to Ram and we didn't have a place to try the "idea"(which is all it is at this point)

    Thoughts?
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  9. #48
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    BlueWater? or homemade? I would make it a lot wider, so the rope would be looser in it, so it can be tied to the retrieval strand top and bottom, and when pulled the rap strand would easily slide through it. Of course, it does not protect the rock during the pulling phase, in a normal "pull-through" situation.

    Tom
    Stamped on a tag is JHRG LLC
    So I don't think Bluewater, unless that is just who they purchased the material from.

  10. #49
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Stamped on a tag is JHRG LLC
    So I don't think Bluewater, unless that is just who they purchased the material from.
    They show the product on their site

    http://www.jhrgllc.com/fabricthread/...chafegear.html

  11. #50
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    My ideas on the sandtrap involved attaching BD talons to the pull line via a prussic cord or better yet--to adapt to length, a purcell prussic.

    In tostado mode--fold sandtrap length wise, fasten talon in weakness/crach/whatever.

    Fold sandtrap over talon and add sand to solidify and hold talon in place.

    repeat on other side.

    Would only be good on slickrock with a crack or some feature to attach talon to.

    pulling on pull cord dumps sand--as usual and disrupts talons from there holding spot.

    Could also be used in taco mode in the right spot.

    I showed this to Ram and we didn't have a place to try the "idea"(which is all it is at this point)

    Thoughts?
    What problem are you trying to solve?

    T

  12. #51
    Sorry Devil! I didn't mean to offend.

  13. #52
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    What problem are you trying to solve?

    T
    A smooth semi-featureless, maybe slightly downsloping,thin layer of sand or wherever additional friction and bite might be prudent.

    Mostly just trying to add a simple feature that would work somewhere, when nothing else would. An additional tool/idea for the open minded.

    Definitely not intended as an "only way to do it" method.

    Maybe a spot like---where you fell?

  14. #53
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    A smooth semi-featureless, maybe slightly downsloping,thin layer of sand or wherever additional friction and bite might be prudent.

    Mostly just trying to add a simple feature that would work somewhere, when nothing else would. An additional tool/idea for the open minded.

    Definitely not intended as an "only way to do it" method.

    Maybe a spot like---where you fell?
    Where I tumbled had plenty of opportunity to make a solid anchor, with the tools at hand. It was the squishy grey tool that was not working well.

    In that case, why not just use a hook? Or, if the Sandtrap does something, a Sandtrap equalized with a hook?

    T

  15. #54
    Any and all ideas are welcome.
    There are canyoneers of different experience levels participating. Some will be more comfortable with certain ideas while others embrace truly on the edge stuff. Let's keep communication simple and straightforward so that people can tell what is 'tried and true' and what is an 'idea'. Remember cyber language is easily misinterpreted.
    Keep it coming. I've been trying to set a foundation for this conversation all week. We've covered potshots pretty well except for some fine points such as the one that Devil and PG have clarified.
    We have only started on the trap, I hope.

  16. #55
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Where I tumbled had plenty of opportunity to make a solid anchor, with the tools at hand. It was the squishy grey tool that was not working well.

    In that case, why not just use a hook? Or, if the Sandtrap does something, a Sandtrap equalized with a hook?

    T
    All tools and options I agree.......

    So are you suggesting to only use a sandtrap according to manufactures recommendations and where it won't work just bolt?

    Is your "grey" tool capable of accepting potentially viable input from other sources or is it destined to repeated failure?

  17. #56
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens View Post
    Any and all ideas are welcome.
    There are canyoneers of different experience levels participating. Some will be more comfortable with certain ideas while others embrace truly on the edge stuff. Let's keep communication simple and straightforward so that people can tell what is 'tried and true' and what is an 'idea'. Remember cyber language is easily misinterpreted.
    Keep it coming. I've been trying to set a foundation for this conversation all week. We've covered potshots pretty well except for some fine points such as the one that Devil and PG have clarified.
    We have only started on the trap, I hope.
    Agreed, and I clearly labeled my sandtrap "idea" as such.

    I think there is a lot of room for expansion on a great idea(sandtrap)

  18. #57
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    All tools and options I agree.......

    So are you suggesting to only use a sandtrap according to manufactures recommendations and where it won't work just bolt?

    Is your "grey" tool capable of accepting potentially viable input from other sources or is it destined to repeated failure?
    You threw out an idea, looking for response. Now you object to my response, on the basis that it is negative and questioning? I believe we are both accusing the other of having a closed mind. C'mon Kurt. YOU just got some canyon time in, so I was hoping to see a less bristley No. 7 for at least another couple days...

    There are many more tools than SandTraps and Bolts, as you imply is the limit of one's toolbox. Some people find hooks useful. I have not, though I have not tried them much. (Saved us from a cold bivy once, though!)

    Tom

  19. #58
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    I would never object to questioning---negative on the other hand seems counter productive to the exchange of ideas in the interest of improving a mousetrap.


    I had a similar conversation a few years ago with a guy looking to make a new rappel device. I have a friend with a plazma cutter so this guy sends me his dimension for his rappel device. Upon looking at said layout I drew up a variant and sent it in along with this guys version to the plazma cutter.

    His variation is picture #1, my variation is picture #2.
    He said my idea was to big and bulky and would never work, so he sent his design in to the machining company and they came back with picture #3. After repeated testing by that guy, my former partner and myself, we decided the device was o.k. but very limited.
    A new version came out, it is in picture #4, I guess he's doing o.k. with it but I wouldn't know, we don't talk much anymore.
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  20. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens
    What are people using to prevent rope grooves? Is the hose being used universally? Are some using nothing? Something else?
    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens
    We have only started on the trap, I hope.
    I used the hose for the first time after reading this thread before No Kidding on Friday. It worked well on 1 pull and not much on the other. It didn't seem like a problem at all to carry the extra 3 feet of hose. Prior to that, I would look at each rappel with grooves as a factor in which tool to choose. I may be behind the learning curve for not being aware of the option prior.


    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7
    A smooth semi-featureless, maybe slightly downsloping,thin layer of sand or wherever additional friction and bite might be prudent.

    Mostly just trying to add a simple feature that would work somewhere, when nothing else would. An additional tool/idea for the open minded.
    I am buying what you are selling. I can see how this could be useful. It would be a rare occasion to use it, but good to have as a tool when other options are ineffective.

  21. #60
    I am gonna jump in here! Look y'all, I invented the Sandtrap( MaxxiPad) as we first called it (but Tom correctly suggested that there are some very politically correct and delicate souls out there....). Because of the difficulty and time constraints in setting up the stacked, piled or whatever you want to call it pot-shot configuration and the split bag results of some pulls, I came up with the MaxxiPad(don'tya love it!) design. Me and my wife Maria, who sewed the original one, tested it on over 200 raps personally before intro'ing to the general canyoneering crowd, and it works, as a lot of you ACTIVE canyoneers are finding out. It works well in the "flat" or "tostada" mode, and in the "taco" mode hanging behind a pothole lip. Experimenting WITH BACKUP in each of these modes is a learning experience. I recently did a canyon that I named Crack City because of the multiple elevator downclimbs, one Sandtrap descent and one potshot "jamb" because there was not enough sand or a favorable position to use the Sandtrap. So the Sandtrap is a useful tool in your quiver, to be used when the situation requires.Also, I do not know how long the garden hose idea has been around, but I came up with the idea, tested it for specific use with the Sandtrap to reduce retrieval pull and it works twofold- reduces pull and prevents rope grooves, as most grooves are a result of the retrieval, not the rap( think continuous moving rope friction on rock)....be safe out there!

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