Rappelling - Rope on Webbing

[Brian in SLC]

Maryland Crab Cakes...yeah, the crabs ain't from Maryland...

Still tastes great, though.

The 11 largest importers of blue swimming crabs in the United States agreed
last week to voluntarily set a minimum size for the crabs harvested in Indonesia
and the Philippines. Those nations are the two largest markets for the
importers, all members of the National Fisheries Institute's Crab Council.


"We're in danger of fishing the population down to the level where it might
take years to recover," said Ed Rhodes, co-director of Phillips' division of
aquaculture and sustainability. "We don't want to get there. Phillips' positions
is we want to make sure we have a sustainable fishery into the future."


The seafood company, which operates restaurants in Maryland and the East
Coast and sells crab cakes and crabmeat across the country, helped develop the
crab fishery in Asia as demand for the product grew.


The company was one of the first to export blue swimming crabmeat to the
United States, and Indonesia and the Philippines now supply about 90 percent of
the crabmeat that the company sells to supermarkets and restaurants and uses to
make "Maryland-style" crab cakes.

[oldno7]

The odiferous Italian truffle, prized by gourmets across the world, is under threat from cheap Chinese fakes, it emerged yesterday.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...e-imports.html

So there ya have it--"proof" that home depot quick links are just as good as Mallion!!

[Rob L]

Just a note about European CE marking.

It is a self-certifying mark, in that the manufacturer (if in Europe) or the importer (if the products are made outside Europe) puts the mark on with NO independent supervision (by for example an independant testing lab).

The CE mark will refer to the Standard (EN) to which the product conforms, and that standard may require a certain method (and number) of tests to be conducted, but there is not necessarily any requirement to have any independant certification. Any products sold in Europe for lifting purposes are required to be CE marked. It makes sense that the manufacturer/importer certify the product to other international standards at the same time (for example to UL).

Having said that, a formal quality system is usually a requirement before a company can use the CE mark. Further, the European trading standards bodies are pretty rigorous about dealing with unscrupulous manufacturers and importers, but these unscrupulous companies only usually come to light after some failure of the product.

[hank moon]

Just a note about European CE marking.

It is a self-certifying mark, in that the manufacturer (if in Europe) or the importer (if the products are made outside Europe) puts the mark on with NO independent supervision (by for example an independant testing lab).

Hi Rob

While it is true that certain types of PPE do not require independent certification (i.e. Category I, stuff like gardening gloves), Maillons* are Category III PPE (including life safety equipment) and do require such certification. See here for more info (scroll down to blue-box diagram for general overview):

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/secto...2/index_en.htm


*the ones sold as PPE, that is. Some maillons are PPE, others are not. Those that are not may be self-certified.

[oldno7]

You can only pretend the french aren't affected by the truffle trade

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/fre...066921596.html


"In France they are mixed with the local variety and sold at a hundred times the price paid to the farmers who find them."


So as we see here, a precedence has been set by the french.

mixed truffles, mixed mallions--where do they draw the line?

[hank moon]

mixed truffles, mixed mallions--where do they draw the line?

Fortunately, suspect rapides are readily identified for culling:

Attachment 51833

[Brian in SLC]

Reminds me of those Petzl Spirit carabiners that failed the heat treat or some such. Sold for scrap. Ended up at the BD swap being sold by a scrap dealer. Folks wigged out. I think they cut them in half now? Yikes.

Great link to the CE stuff, Hank. There's your cost difference, right there (besides location, labor rates, etc).

Doesn't get you independent or individual testing done on rapides, but, goes pretty far in the direction of "goodness".

[oldno7]

Without any testing(head to head), or notable failures, is it possible to state the maillion is a better product than a variety store quick link?

It certainly could be stated, they should be..

I would love to see a head to head test.

[Brian in SLC]

My bet is rapides, fabricated out of similar materials, would compare favorably.

What you probably don't get, is, constistantly good product, or, an idear if something in your product/process was honked up.

I think you're buying "assurance".

[ratagonia]

Just a note about European CE marking.

It is a self-certifying mark, in that the manufacturer (if in Europe) or the importer (if the products are made outside Europe) puts the mark on with NO independent supervision (by for example an independant testing lab).

The CE mark will refer to the Standard (EN) to which the product conforms, and that standard may require a certain method (and number) of tests to be conducted, but there is not necessarily any requirement to have any independant certification. Any products sold in Europe for lifting purposes are required to be CE marked. It makes sense that the manufacturer/importer certify the product to other international standards at the same time (for example to UL).

Having said that, a formal quality system is usually a requirement before a company can use the CE mark. Further, the European trading standards bodies are pretty rigorous about dealing with unscrupulous manufacturers and importers, but these unscrupulous companies only usually come to light after some failure of the product.

My experience at Black Diamond says different.

Step 1 was to have each PRODUCT CERTIFIED VIA testing at an independent lab, and the QA process for that product had to meet certain requirements.

Step 2 was to have the COMPANY CERTIFIED with an acceptable control and QA process, and then (as I remember, always dubious) the company can certify its own products meet the standards. Thus, the company becomes (for instance) ISO 9001.

While this is only slightly different than what you said, I think the difference is significant.

And, of course, fraudsters can always defraud.

Tom

p.s. hmmm, shoulda read Hank's post first. But, as I remember, the process for certifying products is much easier and faster once the company is ISO 9001 certified.

[ratagonia]

Without any testing (head to head), or notable failures, is it possible to state the maillion is a better product than a variety store quick link?

It certainly could be stated, they should be..

I would love to see a head to head test.

Head to head test between what? The worst non-certified Rapid Link? The Average (as if that has meaning)? The ones you get going down to Ace Hardware tomorrow?

I would say that MOST of the non-certified ones are just fine. I also think most of us can examine what we get and sort out the really bad stuff.

The worst non-certified 1/4" rapides I have seen and broken were half the strength of the best/average 1/4" rapides bought at the same wholesaler (Nut and Bolt Supply SLC). I am kinda OCD, but, as a responsible retailer, I stopped selling the NnB Supply Rapides and moved to the Maillons Rapide ones as soon as I received those results.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Reminds me of those Petzl Spirit carabiners that failed the heat treat or some such. Sold for scrap. Ended up at the BD swap being sold by a scrap dealer. Folks wigged out. I think they cut them in half now? Yikes.

Great link to the CE stuff, Hank. There's your cost difference, right there (besides location, labor rates, etc).

Doesn't get you independent or individual testing done on rapides, but, goes pretty far in the direction of "goodness".

Was the same story from Ventura and BD, and BD immediately moved to cutting all discarded and all tested gear, and all prototypes. Big bolt cutters can cut through a carabiner!

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Was the same story from Ventura and BD, and BD immediately moved to cutting all discarded and all tested gear, and all prototypes. Big bolt cutters can cut through a carabiner!

Well....not all prototypes...interesting thread on the stainless crampon breakage from last year. Poor Bill stickin' his head into it...

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubb...pics/1004766/3

[spinesnaper]

Tom

My understanding is that this is all a statistics game anyway. Better processes reduce the incidence of failure, it simply does not eliminate the possibility of failure. Nevertheless, I would rather buy a product that is only likely to fail in one out of 100,000 uses rather than one they may fail in every 1000 uses. That is worth an extra buck. I guess that may effect one's decision to shop at Home Depot or CanyoneeringUSA.

Ken

[Brian in SLC]

My understanding is that this is all a statistics game anyway. Better processes reduce the incidence of failure, it simply does not eliminate the possibility of failure. Nevertheless, I would rather buy a product that is only likely to fail in one out of 100,000 uses rather than one they may fail in every 1000 uses. That is worth an extra buck. I guess that may effect one's decision to shop at Home Depot or CanyoneeringUSA.

Yep.

My bet is its not a cycle amount type issue with any "bad" rapides. Odds are, a "bad" rapide would fall apart just as much when removed from the package as through the first single use. If you can't see a noticable defect, then, odds are it'll be okey dokey. Even when we cut a cheap one completely through with a bolt cutter, the darn thing still took well more than body weight to pull a rope through.

If I was going to attach one to my harness for longtime usage? I'd probably either load test it myself (to a high enough amount) or just buy a darn CE certified nice one.

Odds are...

[Rob L]

Tom & Hank:

Thanks for the update.

If they are categorised as PPE, then that's the case. I think (it was a long time ago, and EU regs may have changed since then) that "lifting equipment" undergoes a different CE marking regimen.

Rob

[spinesnaper]

Yep.

My bet is its not a cycle amount type issue with any "bad" rapides. Odds are, a "bad" rapide would fall apart just as much when removed from the package as through the first single use. If you can't see a noticable defect, then, odds are it'll be okey dokey. Even when we cut a cheap one completely through with a bolt cutter, the darn thing still took well more than body weight to pull a rope through.

If I was going to attach one to my harness for longtime usage? I'd probably either load test it myself (to a high enough amount) or just buy a darn CE certified nice one.

Odds are...

Which is more likely to fail at body weight, your girth wrapped buried anchor or the rapide at the end of the sling? I am going to guess it will be the anchor by any measure.

Ken

[oldno7]

Lets try this from another angle(for you doubters)
Your in North wash and run out of your prized mallion rapides. You still have several days left on this adventure and canyons to do.

Your options:

Spinesnaper--goes to Hanksville, finds internet connection, sends in order to Tom, waits 2 days for Tom to 2nd day them, goes back to North Wash with maillion rapides, picks up camp,
goes home..

oldno7--goes to the hardware store in Blanding, grabs handful of 5/16" quick links, back to North wash same day, gets in 5 canyons in next 2 days with spinesnapers partners, who don't know whats become of him.....we all drink spinesnapers beer, considering him dead on the road to Hanksville, toast.

And to this day--NO ONE can PROVE, mallion rapides are any safer in a canyoneering environment.

[spinesnaper]

Lets try this from another angle(for you doubters)
Your in North wash and run out of your prized mallion rapides. You still have several days left on this adventure and canyons to do.

Your options:

Spinesnaper--goes to Hanksville, finds internet connection, sends in order to Tom, waits 2 days for Tom to 2nd day them, goes back to North Wash with maillion rapides, picks up camp,
goes home..

oldno7--goes to the hardware store in Blanding, grabs handful of 5/16" quick links, back to North wash same day, gets in 5 canyons in next 2 days with spinesnapers partners, who don't know whats become of him.....we all drink spinesnapers beer, considering him dead on the road to Hanksville, toast.

And to this day--NO ONE can PROVE, mallion rapides are any safer in a canyoneering environment.

Oldno7

My philosophy is that all gear in the field is disposable, right down to my leica M9 camera. My $10 biners also double as rapides. They're just a little hairy to block against. Besides, this isn't my first rodeo, I never leave beer in camp.

And don't worry, I am going to use your crappy 5/16 rapide when I come to it in a canyon. It is just not what I buy. I am not saying you shouldn't use them. When you get on rappel "you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Ken

[hank moon]

And to this day--NO ONE can PROVE, mallion rapides are any safer in a canyoneering environment.

Yeah, and no-one can prove they're NOT safer, either. So?