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Thread: Rappelling - Rope on Webbing

  1. #21
    FWIW the Home Depot links actually have weight ratings on them, but I concur, we are talking about pennies in the grand scheme of things. I was just considering the pocketbook of the originator of this thread since he is asking about just using webbing anyways.
    Darin

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  3. #22
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audilard View Post
    FWIW the Home Depot links actually have weight ratings on them, but I concur, we are talking about pennies in the grand scheme of things. I was just considering the pocketbook of the originator of this thread since he is asking about just using webbing anyways.
    It has a weight rating on it.

    Do you know what that means? What standard is it tested to? What QA system do they use?

    I have a Sharpie, i can put a strength rating on almost anything, and it means about the same.

    Tom

  4. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Seriously??? I tried to cut through webbing with a rope once and after about 5 minutes I gave up. I might have to try it again, but my experience is that it takes a massive amount of sawing to cut through webbing with a rope, its not a simple task.

    Anyone else ever try to intentionally cut through webbing? What were your results? What rope were you using?
    Did it in a class at SUU taught by a gentleman from Zion. Took about 15 seconds to cut through the webbing. I've since repeated the demonstration for groups I teach (BSA groups mostly) several times and it is usually pretty quick.
    Last edited by Branin; 02-26-2012 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Ended up without the quote the first time.

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  6. #24
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I'll try this experiment again.

    FYI: Last time I tried it I used a 3/8" polypropylene rope from Home Depot (because that is what was lying around in the garage that day) and not a climbing rope. I'll try it with one of Tom's ropes and 1" webbing and see what happens. I could see minor burn marks on the rope but nothing on the webbing after 5 minutes of hard sawing.
    Ah. Perhaps this is one reason we don't use polypropylene water skiing "rope" for canyoneering. Among other reasons.

    Tom

  7. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by maarten.1975 View Post
    Yep, by sliding about 3 or 4 feet of rope up and down in the webbing, it was really easy to make it 'slice through'... So easy, for me it did the trick: convince me to use the ring. What rope and/ or webbing I used, we should ask Hank... Maybe he remembers
    Hi Maarten

    We used 1" BW Climb-Spec webbing (used, but in good condition) and can't remember the exact rope, but most likely BW Canyon Pro 8mm. The rope was well-used (clean appearance, but slightly sand-impregnated). Force used was well under bodyweight - just pulling with the arms. Saws through pretty quick. Dirty rope makes a quicker cut, too. If Shane's rope was clean polypropylene, I can see that taking awhile - especially if it was standard hollow-braid or double-braided rope (most PP is). Also, the PP/Nylon coefficient of friction might be lower than Nylon/Nylon. PP seems to be slicker on the skin.

    Anyway, it only takes a few minutes to find out for yourself, so give it a try if you're feeling skeptical. Try using bodyweight (safely) for a real eye opener.

  8. #26
    FWIW: The quick-links at Home-Depot are rated with a "safe working load" which has something like a safety factor of 10 designed into them.

    1/4 - 880# Safe Working Load
    5/16 - 1760# Safe Working Load
    3/8 - 2200# Safe Working Load

    Which means a 1/4 link can lift more than two old school Caddillacs before breaking. And a 5/16 link can lift more than 4 caddies.

    The quick-links that come packaged will be marked on the package. The quick-links that are shipped in bulk and than dumped into a bin will be marked on the shipping container or box.

  9. #27
    I used to buy rapid links from the Dollar store, at, uhh, a buck per. 3/8" and 5/16". Some up to 1/2". Crazy cheap.

    Yeah, they're made in China.

    Recently, I cut one with a pair of bolt cutters, right in the end where the rope would set. Tested a few by pulling a loop of rope through the cut. Folks might be surprised how strong these things are, even with an obvious cut in them. Still well over many body weights...

    Also pull tested a gob of them to failure, and, they always snap at the threads, and, don't "unwind". Way above body weight.

    YMMV.

    I buy the spendy stainless ones now, and, leave them on bolt hangers in combo with a stainless ring (Fixe ring). Spendy set up, but, nothing but the finest for my peeps.

  10. #28
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    FWIW: The quick-links at Home-Depot are rated with a "safe working load" which has something like a safety factor of 10 designed into them.

    1/4 - 880# Safe Working Load
    5/16 - 1760# Safe Working Load
    3/8 - 2200# Safe Working Load

    Which means a 1/4 link can lift more than two old school Caddillacs before breaking. And a 5/16 link can lift more than 4 caddies.

    The quick-links that come packaged will be marked on the package. The quick-links that are shipped in bulk and than dumped into a bin will be marked on the shipping container or box.
    "something like"??? That must be one of those high-falutin' engineering terms us civilians don't understand. (/sarcasm)

    SWL is a system for rating industrial strength-related stuff, and the SWL is generally 1/5th of the minimum breaking strength.

    The problem here, I repeat, is not that the things don't have a rating. It is that, without a standard, we really have very little idea of what that rating means. We also pretty much know that when properly made, rapid links meet the CE standard etc. etc.; but without knowledge of the Quality Assurance system, we don't really know if those things are "properly made". The CE Standard includes an acceptable QA system in place, and marking with the CE stamp so the end-user can know that. Maillons Rapide rapides meet the CE standard.

    That said, a rapide IS a simple system, and steel is an easy to work with and a forgiving material (in this application). So in sizes larger than the 1/4", I feel pretty good about the strength of them. But the 1/4"??? Sonny broke some for me that had a 880# SWL rating, made in China, and they broke at 3000 lbs. 3000 is not 5X 880. The 1/4" Pacific Rim rapides I would stay away from.

    Incidentally, if they break at the threads, then they are not "properly made". The mode for failure of this design is to break at the neck-down point above or below the threaded connection. With three full threads engaged, the threaded part should be full strength. If the threads are not "properly engaged", then the device is not "properly made".

    Jes sayin'

    Tom

  11. #29
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Can anyone cite an incidence of rapide failure in a descending/ascending application?

  12. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    "Incidentally, if they break at the threads, then they are not "properly made". The mode for failure of this design is to break at the neck-down point above or below the threaded connection. With three full threads engaged, the threaded part should be full strength. If the threads are not "properly engaged", then the device is not "properly made".
    I'll have to check my samples, but, that's pretty much were all the ones I didn't cut through broke. Finger tight. Not in the threads, per se, but, right near. "Oh snap". Ha ha.

    CE rating still doesn't get you individually loaded tested product.

    I'd be curious to know what the actual testing differences are between the spendier CE rated stuff from Europe, and, the pacific rim rapides. My bet is as far as batch testing, and, material testing, they aren't so dissimilar. But, I don't know other than what I've heard from folks in the bizz (word of mouth).

    I really think for trade canyons, its nice to step up to the good stuff, for sure.

    Much prefer to rappel, and, leave for others to rappel on, a round ring. Really seems to help spread out the wear and tear. Steel is real!

  13. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Sonny broke some for me that had a 880# SWL rating, made in China, and they broke at 3000 lbs.
    I have no problem rapping from an anchor with a 3000# tested breaking strength. I'll bet 50% of the time that would not be the weakest link in the system.

    YMMV.


  14. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    FWIW: The quick-links at Home-Depot are rated with a "safe working load" which has something like a safety factor of 10 designed into them.
    Maillon Rapide brand links have a breaking strength that is 5X the SWL/NWL marked on them. Other brands - who knows? Can you call the mfg in China to find out? :)

    I enjoy using life safety gear made by people who know they are making life safety gear and therefore have high quality control. I know for a fact that Chinese mfgs will sometimes make component/material substitutions based solely on a need to make a delivery deadline, w/o due concern for final product quality. I don't buy that level of quality for my life safety stuff. If I did, I'd just buy rope and other basic rappelling stuff at home depot.

  15. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Maillon Rapide brand links have a breaking strength that is 5X the SWL/NWL marked on them. Other brands - who knows? Can you call the mfg in China to find out? :)
    I wouldn't think most of us could call the "Maillon Rapide" folks either. Maybe you have an in? Data, we need data. Not, "its French, so it must be better". Ha ha (said through the nose)!


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    Cheap Chinese made 3/8" Quick Link marked "SWL 2200 LBS", cut completely through with a bolt cutter, and, load tested with a 9mm rope. Yee haa!

    How's that go? "Without data, you're just another a$$hole with an opinion."

    YMMV, IMHO, EIEIO.

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  17. #34
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    I wouldn't think most of us could call the "Maillon Rapide" folks either. Maybe you have an in? Data, we need data. Not, "its French, so it must be better". Ha ha (said through the nose)!
    +33 (0) 2 51 76 00 35 "Hotline and Technical Support, After Sales".

    if you prefer to deal with the U.S. office, that number is: 1-866-621-1062

    They can tell you the relevant CE standard the things are built to, but they cannot share a copy of the standard with you as it is copyrighted material. You can buy a copy at the ASTM.

    Tom

  18. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    I wouldn't think most of us could call the "Maillon Rapide" folks either. Maybe you have an in?
    There's a website for the MR brand and a timely post there:

    http://www.peguet.fr/us/peguet-news.cfm#news59


  19. #36
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Can anyone cite an incidence of rapide failure in a descending/ascending application?

  20. #37
    Check out those cool black rapides!

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    Sure, they stamp and mark 'em with all kinds of load ratings. So do the Chinese.

    I take it they get rod stock in as their main raw material, and, they do some non-destructive testing on it? Oh, and they get that mighty material certification too (ha ha, always worth the paper they're printed on I'm sure). Any idear what NDI they do? Mag particle, UT? All of the rod stock, or, a sample?

    Ditto the nuts.

    Then they make the rapide. I'm sure they do some type of batch testing. What, they bust a few? They don't apply a load rating to them based on the results, ala BD's 6 sigma program.

    They don't individually test each rapide? Not that I can see.

    I think the CE and other standards they certify their rapides to require a certain amount of testing and documentation of such.

    Does anyone how much actual testing is done per batch?

    And...how much more do they do than a Chinese manufacturer? Dunno.

    As a component in a rappel anchor, any size at or over 8mm is overkill, even if they're made out of pig iron. Margin has to be pretty high.

    Great that folks spend the money for the "good stuff". But, I've busted enough of the cheapies to know, for me, that I'm not worried about them for use in a rappel anchor. Especially given the size (5/16" or bigger) that I use. And, for climbing anchors, I've gone stainless. Of course I'd still leave a plated rapide on a seldom done remote route, to be sure.

    Good stuff!

  21. #38
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Just as I thought--after days to dig through the interwebs and find a citation on rapide failure on ascending/descending, it appears there is no documented instance of failure!!

    So I view these expensive "maillon" rapides kinda like french truffles, more than likely imported from China and marked up in france.

  22. #39
    Been interesting to watch and read the discussion.

    Mallion rapids are definitely a professional, quality standard. From what I have read and researched their quality control is definitely much higher.

    That said, what we do with that information is different. Cost/benefit analysis for canyoneering isn't always the most objective process. Nor does it factor in the relative probability of the types of accidents we are likely to see in the field. Seems most accidents happen from human error not mechanical failure. Especially when we are dealing with complex natural anchors. Is the rapide the component most people worry about on a natural anchor that needs to initially be backed up by meat for the first rappel? Doubt it. Its really only one of a couple components that can be quantified.

    On the other hand, how much does it cost the average canyoneer to upgrade to Mallions for the obvious increase in standard? $50 a year at most?

    I have never been consistent with my choice of rapides. There were plenty of times I grabbed a couple at the hardware store because I needed some at the last minute. But thats definitely not ideal.

    Phillip

  23. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    So I view these expensive "maillon" rapides kiqnda like french truffles, more than likely imported from China and marked up in france.
    The odiferous Italian truffle, prized by gourmets across the world, is under threat from cheap Chinese fakes, it emerged yesterday.



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...e-imports.html

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