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Thread: Rappelling - Rope on Webbing

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    Oldno7 My philosophy is that all gear in the field is disposable, right down to my leica M9 camera. My $10 biners also double as rapides. They're just a little hairy to block against. Besides, this isn't my first rodeo, I never leave beer in camp.
    Ken
    I'm with you spinesnaper! Many a "Leaver Biner" has been known to unclip from my harness. No need for a "block". Lets see???? In the 2-3 days of canyoning there with you in N.W., what maybe we have to leave 3-4 "Leaver's" at a cost of $8 ea. for a total of $32. Not bad considering the price of gas up around $3.50. $32's a pretty fair price to pay to not have to waste time and gas! BTW.....I'm with you so wheres the beer?

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  4. #62
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    Oldno7

    My $10 biners also double as rapides. They're just a little hairy to block against.

    Ken
    o.k.--joking aside for a minute----


    I know your somewhat new to canyoneering, but please tell me your not serious here!!!
    If you want to rap off your biner, by all means, do so. Just please don't try to block it!!!!!!!!
    Do as Bo suggests and go double strand.
    We've already lost a California canyoneer to this, you don't want to be the 2nd.

  5. #63
    Oldno7

    Quite familiar with the mechanics of this. First you need to know that it is improbable that I would be in a situation that I would need to use a carabiner "as a rapide" because I head into canyons with way too much gear including more than enough rapides. Second, if I needed a rapide but did not have it, I would not hesitated to use a much more expensive biner for this purpose. The point you are making here is that carabiners are flat out dangerous for this purpose if it is necessary to block a rope. There are instances where canyoneers have died because the block including the second biner did not block but actually slipped through a large carabiner at the top of the rap.

    Admittedly, I was just baiting you.

    However, for those who might read this thread and not be aware of these issues, the rapide is the preferred device to pass a rope through at the top of a rap. It reduces friction and it prevents the nylon on nylon cutting that is the actual core of this thread, and of course it is less expensive than an actual carabiner. A wrap ring can also be used, but it takes forethought to deploy a wrap ring; whereas one can easily open the rapide and place it on the sling after the slings are in place. Finally if one does block the rope, a clove hitch on a locking carabiner as the block is too large to physically pass through a rapide. It should be noted that small profile knots can be forced through a larger rapide with tragic consequences. The clove hitch on a locking biner is sufficiently large that this won't happen. If one was out of rapides and needed to set up a rappel, a locking carabiner could of course be substituted for a rapide but in this instance, one's rope management options must change. Depending on the resources at hand, toss and go would avoid the risk of pulling a block through the top biner, which is one of the causes of lethal single strand rappel errors. Use of a pull cord would be precluded and this might affect the length of a rappel one could do. Also ascending the rope would require a double strand technique which is not as simple as a single strand technique. The take home lesson is carry enough Maillon rapides and that way your canyoneering buddies won't drink all your beer while you are waiting for Tom to Fedex more rapides to you in the Swell.

    Ken

  6. #64
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Ahh-Well Done then Spine.

    I don't mind being baited if it has potential for learning.

    By the way--It's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out, loses their beer in camp or free falls from a ledge 300' while blocking a biner with a biner......

  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Ahh-Well Done then Spine.

    I don't mind being baited if it has potential for learning.

    By the way--It's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out, loses their beer in camp or free falls from a ledge 300' while blocking a biner with a biner......
    Yes, bottom line: bring plenty of rapides and plenty of beer. And no, we are not suggesting drinking and caynoneering at the same time. The brews are for carbo loading after the event

  8. #66
    dsr70 in one of the first posts mentioned using chain link--what are the pros and cons?

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstone Addiction View Post
    dsr70 in one of the first posts mentioned using chain link--what are the pros and cons?
    Pros: They're cheap.

    Do your own QA.

    Buy a 20-link 1/4 " or 3/8 " chain of your choice; you'll end up with 10 useful links. Then proof-load these 10 links to five-times your body weight (quite easy with a fork-lift truck at your friendly neighbourhood steel yard). Test one of the ten to 10-times (or to destruction). You will end up with nine proof-loaded links. Et voila!

    Cons: You can only use these for your own use; you cannot sell them.

  10. #68
    Edit: You could proof-load the whole 20 links in one fell swoop before separating the links...as they say, the weakest link...etc etc

  11. #69
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob L View Post
    Edit: You could proof-load the whole 20 links in one fell swoop before separating the links...as they say, the weakest link...etc etc
    Or, buy the proof-tested chain. Usually gold in color, and somewhat more expensive.

    The big problem is the internal size. If you are using thin canyoneering-type ropes, not much of a problem. Please do not leave them on anchors in Zion, as many people here use fat, wasted climbing ropes = 12mm ==> get stuck in those things.

    Tom
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  12. #70
    Interesting post. Thought I'd let you guys know CAMP sells quick links cheaper than Home Depot. 8mm 40kN/10kN zinc plated for $1.38/per (when you actually hit the "BUY NOW" link and enter quantity in your cart). And no, I'm not promoting/advertising their product. I just went through this whole debate myself 2 months ago and decided to go with "professional stuff". I feel much better, and so does my tiny wallet.

  13. #71
    Here's the link: camp-usa.com/products/carabiners/oval-quick-links-zinc.asp

  14. #72
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schrods View Post
    Here's the link: camp-usa.com/products/carabiners/oval-quick-links-zinc.asp
    Did you actually order and receive them at that price? Because that is the wholesale price, and is an error on their website, or you wandered into the wholesale part of their website...

    Tom
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  15. #73
    Like i said, using that link and hitting the "BUY NOW" button, that's the price I paid. I only ordered 10.

  16. #74
    Guess they fixed that. When I put in that URL, the price comes to $2.20 per 10 mm link.

    Ken

  17. #75
    But they advertise the 10mm price at $4.00...

  18. #76
    Ok, now I feel really bad because I still didn't order any.

  19. #77
    When rappelling off of a webbing anchor with no rapide or rap ring, rig a retrievable (cem, macrame etc.)... No need to pull the length of the rappel through the anchor/webbing...

  20. #78
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    links

    I have for years been using chain link, ("ricks links") the good 3/8 inch galvanized stuff @ home depot comes out to about $.40 a link, after you cut off every other one. Best to cut off a 2 or 3 ft section, take it up to the register and pay for it, keep the receipt in your pocket, and then go back to the cutter and chop every other link. The orange aprons are going to be on you quick enough. The SWL btw is 5400 or 5600 lbs, with no screw to jam or lock, beats the hell out of quick links, if you're setting the anchor from scratch, and not just replacing links on an existing sling. Lots of room for a 9.2, the largest rope i use.

  21. #79

    Just what I needed

    I went looking for info on the downsides of rappelling directly off webbing; this thread gave me what I needed. Two main takeaways:

    1. I'd probably live thru the rappel, maybe stick a rope, but leave a time bomb behind for the next, trusting climber.

    B. Never leave your beer in camp.

    Thanks All, Rick

  22. #80
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myfingersaresore View Post
    I went looking for info on the downsides of rappelling directly off webbing; this thread gave me what I needed. Two main takeaways:

    1. I'd probably live thru the rappel, maybe stick a rope, but leave a time bomb behind for the next, trusting climber.

    B. Never leave your beer in camp.

    Thanks All, Rick
    Ha!

    and welcome to the Bog, Senor Rick.

    Tom
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