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Thread: How to rappel from 300 feet

  1. #1

    How to rappel from 300 feet

    I have been told that rappelling from 300 feet is considerably different than doing shorter rappels. To those that have done a 300 footer: What makes this length of rap so different? What rappel device do you prefer for a 300 footer and why? Did you add friction on the way down and how did you do it? What mistakes have you made or seen others make?

    See, I'm building a tower in my back yard and would like to know to safely descend it once it's completed.

    Bob
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  3. #2
    Most follks don't have two 300 foot lengths of rope...so...a 300 foot rappel is usually done single strand.

    Weight of the rope changes a bunch over the course of the rappel (ie, the rope below your brake hand). I tend to be conservative on my friction at the top, even to the point of having to feed the rope.

    I prefer two ATC's, one atop the other (extended with a sling to my harness). Also will add a biner to each leg loop that I can snap into if need be. And have another handy to add on top of the upper ATC, so, I can z rig it if I need additional friction (poor man's hyper bar).

    Depends on the drop, but, most 300 footers are 300 footers due to the terrain. Englestead is steep, but, not really free air and most folks don't like that small exposed rappel station to stop and deal with. Heaps is another. Mostly all free. Just you on the nylon highway...

    Also depends on the diameter and type of rope too.

  4. #3
    Like he said, the weight of the rope changes dramatically from the top to the bottom. I usually use and ats with a vt prusik rigged above it. The vt prusik adds a fair amount of friction and also makes it easy to stop and take a break if needed while still being releasable. The ats lets you add friction towards the bottom if need be.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    I prefer two ATC's, one atop the other (extended with a sling to my harness). Also will add a biner to each leg loop that I can snap into if need be. And have another handy to add on top of the upper ATC, so, I can z rig it if I need additional friction (poor man's hyper bar).
    Brian,
    Thanks for the reply and the description. To make sure I'm understanding, is this what you mean?

    EDIT: BELOW IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY TO DO WHAT BRIAN DESCRIBED.

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    Feel free to laugh if this is incorrect. Also, I would use different carabiners (and screw them shut) in a real life scenario. The chances of falling to my death in the living room seemed really low when I took this picture.
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  6. #5

  7. #6
    Euro Utah enthusiast Michael_WB's Avatar
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    Carabiner errors aside, I sincerely hope you were at least wearing a helmet.

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  9. #7
    Here's my setup
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  10. #8
    What Brian in SLC said.

    And "NO" that's not how to stack ATC's. You attach one to your harness in the normal fashion (bottom ATC). You clip a short sling into your harness and attach an ATC to the sling (top ATC). You run your rope through the top ATC and than the bottom. when you rappel the ATC's will be about 18" apart if you rigged correctly. This makes for a very smooth rappel on long skinny, single strand rope.

    I used to stack ATC's, but now I just use a Z-rig if I want more friction. I can't image a situation where I'd need both stacked ATC's and a Z-rig.

  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael_WB View Post
    Carabiner errors aside, I sincerely hope you were at least wearing a helmet.
    It's funny you mention that...

    So I was rappelling in my living room and I hear my wife yell the word every climber/mountaineer/canyoneer/parent dreads hearing-

    "BLOCK!!"

    My wife only yells this when a wooden toy block is heading my way. So I quickly think- Do I look up? Do I keep my head down? But then it was too late... I don't remember what happened next.

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    Assessing obstacles and hazards, typical Saturday morning around my house.


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    I have to give myself credit for holding on with my brake hand, even while unconscious.


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    This block could have been the end of me. Remember to always wear your helmet while canyoneering at home.


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    Special thanks to the local search and rescue for helping me out of this mess.
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  13. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    What Brian in SLC said.

    And "NO" that's not how to stack ATC's. You attach one to your harness in the normal fashion (bottom ATC). You clip a short sling into your harness and attach an ATC to the sling (top ATC). You run your rope through the top ATC and than the bottom. when you rappel the ATC's will be about 18" apart if you rigged correctly. This makes for a very smooth rappel on long skinny, single strand rope.

    I used to stack ATC's, but now I just use a Z-rig if I want more friction. I can't image a situation where I'd need both stacked ATC's and a Z-rig.
    I just got back from the hospital and they said I should take it easy for a few days. I think those doctors are a bunch of softies. I can't simply give up living room canyoneering now! Back on the horse!

    This is how stacked ATC's are supposed to be rigged (makes much more sense):

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    w/o Z rig


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    with Z rig

    Thanks Shane for the correction, and thanks tcott for the example.
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  14. #11
    Slot machine, looks like you've got good reason to make sure you're rigged correctly. You make sure you always do it safely so you get to come home to that little boy cause some day he'll grow up and wanna go canyoneering with his Dad.

    My son and I in our first canyon - Behunin. We got helmets shortly after this.

    In Englestead last year on an 8mm rope, I used a pirana and a leg biner and had plenty of friction.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  15. #12
    Hi Bob,

    I'm a big fan of the ABC Figure 8. How I rig it for a long rappel depends on several factors, of course, including the diameter of the rope, how much weight it's supporting, dry rap or in a waterfall, am I wearing gloves and so on. For the record I'm 160# and probably half the time I'm rapping with a 20-40# pack hanging off my harness. I'm strong and young (so I like to think!). I mention this because personal info is very important. Your body weight and, perhaps more important, your strength-to-weight ratio account for a lot of how you should set up your rappel device. Also, I don't use autoblocks or other self belays like the VT.

    I typically use 10mm for guided trips and 8mm for personal trips and rappel single strand. For the 10mm I rig the Fig8 in regular mode, assuming I'm wearing a glove. This does create a lot of friction and slows me down a bit at the top so I'll have to pull up and feed rope through the Fig8 for the first 50 feet or so. I use both hands below the device, alternating so as to pull up the rope in a continuous manner. This limits the start/stop bouncing action that's common when only pulling up with one hand. This makes for a more comfortable rappel, puts less stress on the anchor and helps maintain your momentum down the rope. Maintaining momentum is important in quickly getting to that sweet spot on a long rappel where you can stop pulling up rope and simply let the rope slide through on its own. Enjoy that sweet spot while you can, because in another 50-100 feet or so you'll have to engage your brake hand on the rope to start slowing yourself down. This lasts for another 50-100 feet or so until you get to that spot where you'll want additional friction. If it's a free-hanging rappel (or some other rappel where I don't need my non-brake hand free to do something; ie brace against a wall for balance, manhandle a pack hanging off my harness, take photos...) then I first add additional friction by taking my non-brake hand and grabbing the D-Ring on my harness and the rope below the Fig8 and squeezing the rope into my D-Ring. This adds a tremendous amount of friction and helps give my brake hand some relief. This trick oftentimes provides enough friction that I can completely remove my brake hand and give it a rest or do something else with it. If I want additional friction further down - and I usually do - then I'll clip the rope into a carabiner on my leg loop and pull up. This puts an additional bend in the rope and usually adds just the right amount of friction. Typically I'll clip the rope into that leg loop carabiner when I'm at that sweet spot on the rappel where my brake hand is free to do things like clip carabiners. The time that you need the additional friction is not the time to be fiddling with clipping carabiners! You could even clip your leg loop carabiner at the start of the rappel since it really doesn't interfere with typical rappelling techniques.

    For an 8mm I'll rig as described for the 10mm but have another carabiner clipped to my D-Ring ready to set up a Z-Rig if necessary.

    The things I've noticed that really make a difference are:
    A: Full fingered gloves. I normally rappel without them, but on a long rappel they are much appreciated. While I always stress using gear to add friction so as to save your hands, sometimes gear just doesn't cut it. Sometimes it adds too little friction or too much. Oftentimes your grip with a gloved hand is the best tool for microadjusting that friction.
    B: Keeping your hands braced against something. For example, while rappelling if you let your brake hand float around so it's not braced against something then that usually results in a jerky rappel. Obviously this tip only comes into play once you've passed that sweet spot on the rappel where you need to have your brake hand on the rope to slow down. To smooth things out when you get to the bottom of the rappel and things wanna get bouncy, keep your hand firmly fixed against something such as your hip or butt. This makes it much easier (for me, anyway) to regulate the rope through your hand. When using a leg loop carabiner for added friction I always place my hand right up against the carabiner, not out away from it (By the way, keeping your hand on the biner allows you to add even more friction by not only redirecting the rope through a carabiner, but by also grabbing the rope that's coming out the opposite side of the carabiner. You're basically pinching the rope into itself around the carabiner. This trick sometimes eliminates the need for the Z-Rig).

    By the way, in the bottom pictures I'd get rid of that carabiner that's attached to your belay loop and dyneema sling. Ungirth that sling and simply thread it through your belay loop and clip both ends into the upper carabiner ("basket" style). This eliminates a bit of carabiner clutter on your belay loop and...may reduce the chance that the rope going into the lower ATC will rub up against that dyneema. It probaby wouldn't happen anyway since the upper ATC is gonna take the majority of the load and the two belay loop carabiners will be a bit offset, but webbing getting rubbed and pinched between two pieces of metal (one of which is kinda sharp) on a long rappel gives me pause.

  16. #13
    I'm no expert here, but I think the majority of these solutions seem a little excessive. I've only rappelled a full 300 feet once, and it was mostly free hanging. I have a Sterling ATS. I put it in default high friction mode, as well as putting the rope behind the bottom-left phone. I had a leg loop carabiner as well as another one in the big hole to set up a Z-Rig if I needed it, but I didn't end up needing it. I just added friction by wrapping the right horns and then toward the very bottom I put the rope into my leg loop biner, though that wasn't really necessary. Bear in mind here that I weigh 250 pounds. I was entirely in control the whole time. So, basically, while it's always good to be safe, it seems to me like stacked ATCs AND a Z-rig would be excessive.
    --Cliff

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  18. #14
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    There are many ways to skin the cat, and these are worthy. But I would like to point out, in the pictures show:

    If you have the extension off your belay loop to an ATC, and then the other ATC on your belay loop, all those things are in a straight line and you run the risk of the rope running across your extension sling. Thus, it is a good idea to separate thing vertically (the extension sling does that) and also horizontally, for instance by putting the second ATC on your leg loop. The load on the second ATC is small, therefore putting it on the leg loop does not screw up your balance very much.

    Using the two ATC's, I always found the problem was getting the friction low enough. Two ATC's at the lowest setting tended to be just a little too much at the top, and maybe pretty good at the bottom.

    Nice Pics...

    Tom

  19. #15
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilipichicuma View Post
    I'm no expert here, but I think the majority of these solutions seem a little excessive. I've only rappelled a full 300 feet once, and it was mostly free hanging. I have a Sterling ATS. I put it in default high friction mode, as well as putting the rope behind the bottom-left phone. I had a leg loop carabiner as well as another one in the big hole to set up a Z-Rig if I needed it, but I didn't end up needing it. I just added friction by wrapping the right horns and then toward the very bottom I put the rope into my leg loop biner, though that wasn't really necessary. Bear in mind here that I weigh 250 pounds. I was entirely in control the whole time. So, basically, while it's always good to be safe, it seems to me like stacked ATCs AND a Z-rig would be excessive.
    My observation in the past, ilip, is that you have very strong hands and like a relatively low-friction set up.

    I agree that the double ATCs PLUS Z-Rig will probably be way too much.

    My observation has been that a friction adjustment will need to be made at least once in the descent, so there is no perfect rig that will work the whole way (excepting a rack).

    Setting the friction too high can result in very bad things happening (a cue for Brian)... and it is very clear that too low of a setting can also result in very bad things happening.

    I'll try to shoot some pics tonight of the rigging I use that seems to work pretty well.

    Tom

  20. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ilipichicuma View Post
    it seems to me like stacked ATCs AND a Z-rig would be excessive.
    It really just depends as there are so many variables when rappeling.... but its always a good idea to have plenty of tools in your toolbox. I use one or the other, but not both at the same time.


    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    My observation has been that a friction adjustment will need to be made at least once in the descent, so there is no perfect rig that will work the whole way (excepting a rack).
    ^^^THIS^^^

  21. #17
    Hilarious livin' large in the living room shots. Really glad you had your helmet on...

    I usually girth hitch the sling my upper ATC on to my harness (same location as I'd tie in through) and then the other ATC off the belay loop. That separates them a fair bit.

    Had a friend nearly pass out from spinning using a figure eight on that last rappel out of Heaps.

    I kinda like the mid size Rock Exotica mini eight. Be a nice way to add friction, either stacked like the ATC's, or, on the leg loop like Tom suggests.

    Have used a B52 with a munter on the leg for the Englestead rappel, but, those munters can really twist the rope a bit, but, sweet for additional friction.

    Yeah, too much friction, especially if you bounce, can be no bueno. Still, after re-watchin' that guy who was saved by God in Englestead plummet the last 100 feet of that rappel, I'd rather go slow and feed the rope, try to be smooth, and then hopefully the last half or better will be sweet sailing.

    Mini rack is uber nice.

    One method I know a few photographers use to stop and start, that's fairly smooth, is to pitch an ATC out from the harness on a sling, then, add a Gri Gri to the belay loop. Looks great, and, can lock up and stop and restart no problem if need be. Newer Gri Gri's are pretty small and compact and are purported to work better on smaller diameter ropes.

    Take a while to figure out what works for you. Body weight, hand pressure, position, rope diameter, etc, all play into it.

    Cheers!

  22. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    Had a friend nearly pass out from spinning using a figure eight on that last rappel out of Heaps.
    I thought I was the only jackass that happened to! I was on a Totem and was spinning a good 60 revolutions per second by the time I touched down and I still don't know how I didn't puke everywhere.

    I've been curious about why I was spinning so violently. It was dark when we finished and I didn't see that we stuck the rope in a tree until I rapped down on top of it. I always thought that was the reason for the spinning; that the rope got stuck and the gyrations couldn't shake out of it. Can any of you more experienced types tell me if that's a factor or if that'll happen with figure 8s regardless?

    And Cliff - you wear your weight well! I'd figure you for 220, tops!!
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  23. #19
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxnitsuaxx View Post
    I thought I was the only jackass that happened to! I was on a Totem and was spinning a good 60 revolutions per second by the time I touched down and I still don't know how I didn't puke everywhere.

    I've been curious about why I was spinning so violently. It was dark when we finished and I didn't see that we stuck the rope in a tree until I rapped down on top of it. I always thought that was the reason for the spinning; that the rope got stuck and the gyrations couldn't shake out of it. Can any of you more experienced types tell me if that's a factor or if that'll happen with figure 8s regardless?

    And Cliff - you wear your weight well! I'd figure you for 220, tops!!
    Tree had nothing to do with it.

    Any time the rope path is not in a plane running through your rappel device, it will impart twists to the rope. Running through an ATC, or a rack, the rope is in one plane. A figure 8 rigged in Figure-8 mode imparts a LOT of twisting to the rope, as does a Munter Hitch. A Pirana and a Figure 8 in Canyon mode produce somewhat less than half the twisting force.

    It seems like when you rap, you drive twists both up and down the rope, so as you get lower on that long free rap, there are more twists above you which cause you to spin. If your bottom belayer steps out of line and applies a little tension to the rope, they should be able to stop the spinning or prevent it from happening. (Though on the Heaps rappel, that might mean 40' out of line).

    Off to a canyon tomorrow, so no photos tonight.

    A very valuable piece of equipment for long rappels is a pair of family-band radios. I went over the edge at Heaps once and realized I was WAY too low on friction. A quick call to the bottom got 10 lbs of pull on the rope, increased to 20 lbs at halfway, up to 30 lbs for the last 50 feet. Without the radio, I'm not sure what would have happened, but I suspect it might not have been purty.

    Tom

  24. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by remoteman45 View Post
    Slot machine, looks like you've got good reason to make sure you're rigged correctly. You make sure you always do it safely so you get to come home to that little boy cause some day he'll grow up and wanna go canyoneering with his Dad.

    Darn right he’s a good reason. Nice photo. I’ll share just one more, this is what we put on our Christmas card:

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    He’s a tough kid. He was 4 months old when we hiked The Wave last August. He didn’t whimper even once even though it was windy and 100 degrees.

    Anyway, back to living room canyoneering...

    It seems that a Z-rig is a good tool to know about, but is rarely needed or used. I think this photo shows what Matt and Tom are saying about separating the extension from the rope:

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    Thanks everyone for the info. Tis good to learn from the experience of others.

    Bob


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