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  1. #21
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    Tallest single line rap I done was a 250. I set up my ATS rappel device like I normally would. However I had my device extended for twice the break line and a carabiner on my leg loop on standby for an extra point of friction. Rappelled like I normally would til about halfway. then as I began to feel a little more speed. I just put the rope through my legloop biner. I could take a pic when I got time.

    Tallest waterfall I rapped was 600ft... however it was multipitch with sections of 200ft 220ft and 180ft

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  3. #22
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    It seems that a Z-rig is a good tool to know about, but is rarely needed or used.
    while I've only occasionally needed to complete the z I use the c redirect off the leg loop all the time. occasionally I need to go to the upper binner to complete the z

  4. #23
    none of the above deagol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxnitsuaxx View Post
    ... I was on a Totem and was spinning a good 60 revolutions per second by the time I touched down and I still don't know how I didn't puke everywhere.
    .....
    Would it be correct to assume you had the Totem rigged in figure eight mode?

    I have been using the Totem for maybe about 2 years now and have just recently discovered using throttle mode with 2 biners instead of one. It does not seem to put any twist in the rope as far as I can tell so far (need to test on larger raps than what I have done with that mode). So, it seems like this issue of rope twist & spin could be avoided.

    Using 2 biners for my weight (160-ish) causes it to lock off nicely when free hanging. I pull down on the lever to move down the rope. Need a better location and more time to practice..

  5. #24
    Rope, slope and weight of rapper, (rope - size, weight) . Worthy discussion considering how many rookies have slid to their peril in Pine Creek, Behunin, Heaps and Englestead. Rap styles are like religion or politics. How dare one suggest that anothers style is less than (safe) efficient or artful? In recent years some have moved to Pirana, then to Totem and more recently ATS (for most or all raps). On a long drop, some devices will twist the lights out of a rope (already discussed). I've been through Englestead maybe 10 times in the past decade. Last trip, last fall (first rap) I carried (slung below me) two packs down (on a 9mm Imlay rope); ATC XP with two attache biners under the device, half way down, pulled on the attache on the R leg loop (for more friction). Rap was/is very smooth and even, and one can easily stop (if need be) in 3 seconds (that's my rule). If I/we had been on an 8mm line (and were using tubes), I'd stack biners via an extended sling; or swing over to an ATS. Also, firemans belay and signal whistles and radios - beneficial. One other note, some leaders set up light rookies with way too much friction on some long raps. Not efficient and wears folk out. Safety net is the firemans, or a top belay.

  6. #25
    Adventurer Slot Machine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reflection View Post
    Safety net is the firemans, or a top belay.
    Ok, so let's say my hypothetical friend Gigantor owns a 300 foot rope, a 200 foot rope and a 100 foot rope. He plans to do a 300 foot rappel with a group. They plan to use the longest rope for the rappel (obviously).

    The group agrees that the first person to descend should use a top belay. Gigantor ties the 200ft and 100ft ropes together for the belay. They plan to use an ATC-XP in 'guide mode' for their belay device.

    How should Gigantor set up their top belay considering that they have a knot to deal with? Is there a better option than using the ATC-XP in guide mode?
    Last edited by Slot Machine; 03-16-2012 at 01:57 PM. Reason: forgot to mention Gigantor is not a real person

  7. #26
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Ok, so let's say Gigantor owns a 300 foot rope, a 200 foot rope and a 100 foot rope. He is going to do this hypothetical rappel with a group. They plan to use the 300 foot rope for the rappel (obviously).

    The group agrees that the first person to descend should use a top belay. Gigantor ties the 200ft and 100ft ropes together for the belay. They plan to use an ATC-XP in 'guide mode' for their belay device.

    How should Gigantor set up their top belay considering that they have a knot to deal with? Is there a better option than using the ATC-XP in guide mode?
    Uh, yeah. How about a munter hitch off the anchor, with a large carabiner. Can probably just pass the knot through the carabiner.

    Or, can set up a belay device until you get to the knot. Set up a second belay device above the knot, then unclip the carabiner for the first device from the anchor; and let the device w biner stay on the rope just below the knot.

    How much does Gigantor weigh? He sounds like he might be "big boned".

    Tom
    ____________________________________
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  8. #27
    Explorer ndonaldj's Avatar
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    Well, if it's just a belay line, couldn't Gigantor just lock off while they passed the knot? That's just what I would do. There is probably a more clever method out there.

  9. #28
    Bottom Tier Superhero Iceaxe's Avatar
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    More then one way to skin a cat..... How about a combo rappel and lower using the 200' & 100'. And use the 300' for a top belay.

  10. #29
    Explorer ndonaldj's Avatar
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    Are rebelays ever used in canyoneering on big drops like that? In the caving world its pretty rare to see a pit that big without a rebelay or two.

  11. #30
    Z-Crew Deathcricket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Ok, so let's say Gigantor owns a 300 foot rope, a 200 foot rope and a 100 foot rope. He is going to do this hypothetical rappel with a group. They plan to use the 300 foot rope for the rappel (obviously).

    The group agrees that the first person to descend should use a top belay. Gigantor ties the 200ft and 100ft ropes together for the belay. They plan to use an ATC-XP in 'guide mode' for their belay device.

    How should Gigantor set up their top belay considering that they have a knot to deal with? Is there a better option than using the ATC-XP in guide mode?
    Where is this hypothetical rap going to take place? You wanna drop by my house in Saint George and borrow my Petzyl STOP? I only use it for occasions like this and it is very handy. Once you get your friction dialed in, it's not terribly hard to rap 300 feet though. But I say better safe than sorry. :)
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  12. #31
    Adventurer Slot Machine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Uh, yeah. How about a munter hitch off the anchor, with a large carabiner. Can probably just pass the knot through the carabiner.

    Or, can set up a belay device until you get to the knot. Set up a second belay device above the knot, then unclip the carabiner for the first device from the anchor; and let the device w biner stay on the rope just below the knot.

    How much does Gigantor weigh? He sounds like he might be "big boned".

    Tom
    Uh, yeah I appreciate your replay... even if the solution seems obvious to you. I did speak with Spidey about taking his advanced course, which was supposed to be last week, but it got cancelled. Until I get a chance to take his course I'll just keep asking questions around here...

    Gigantor weighs A LOT. But don't judge him, only food and canyoneering help with his depression.

    Quote Originally Posted by ndonaldj View Post
    Well, if it's just a belay line, couldn't Gigantor just lock off while they passed the knot?
    That is what I was wondering, but thought there must be a better way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    More then one way to skin a cat..... How about a combo rappel and lower using the 200' & 100'. And use the 300' for a top belay.
    Hmmm... interesting. Don't have to pass ANY knots that way. Smart!

  13. #32
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndonaldj View Post
    Are rebelays ever used in canyoneering on big drops like that? In the caving world its pretty rare to see a pit that big without a rebelay or two.
    Re-belays are known, and used in Europe, but not used much in Colorado Plateau canyons. In canyoneering, I think of them being used mostly to avoid hefty waterfalls.

    Tom
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  14. #33
    Explorer ndonaldj's Avatar
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    I guess with bolting ethics, and the nature of rappels in canyons a re-belay wouldn't be as appropriate an option as in caves. That was a little off topic, I apologize.

  15. #34
    Hypotheticals: A sign of spring I suppose. Experience, perspective and practice style seem to dictate opinions and views. Over a decade ago I was with three others, they three were all rocket scientists (honest); brilliant chaps. For weeks they had been plotting and planning a 300 ft plus drop. We finally got to the spot and walla, emotion and intesity took hold and logic and reason flew out the window (somewhat). Rocket scientist one, looked down the abyss/alley and backed off stating, I'm not going first. And then the next two said the same. That was a long time ago.

    In normal circumstances, an experienced party goes first, provides the firemans for the rest and the other experienced person goes last, assiting others with set up.

    If with an inexperienced bunch (and just one leader), with a 300, 200 & 100; I'd lower the first on the 300, and have the others rap on the 300 and use the other ropes as a pull line.

    This past fall, I was with a group, 3 brand new rookies. They got to the 300 ft drop (they functionally knew what they were to do), except that they were pysched out and scared and by the time they were on the rope,and down the line, they emotionally and physically didn't relax until off the line. One fellow, on a firemans was lowered a ways (by the firemans) so he could rest his arms and hands. It was a big reminder to me, keep the radar on every person. And adapt quickly if needed (lower a very nervous person if needed) and if ropes or situation adapts, keep whatever simple for the inexperienced. A large biner (most often) works to pass a knot on a belay, but in practice I've seen a strand bind up on a munter when it came through. My rocket scientist friends could have/would have configured 3-4 or more operative ways to use the 300,200,100 (on a belay); but then in action they may (like they often did) change their course when the time came to act. Myself, I could use a refresher from TJ or maybe RC re other quick, easy safe options when the belayer is "passing a knot". (I can do it, but I'd like to see others in action, that are likely more artful)

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  17. #35
    I'm a little late to the party but I have used an ATC with two carabiners so it creates a couple tighter turns for the rope to go around and pinch in between the ATC and biners. This is what I use on free hanging and/or long raps.
    The man thong is wrong.

  18. #36
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    Frictioning / Autoblocking might be good tool to add to your bag of tricks. At least for the first one on descent, permitting that person to free both hands so as to shake out the physical (& mental) pump, clear tangles, pass knots, escape and ascend if necessary, etc... Also could be useful for the newbie/inexperienced in the situation presented by reflection (post #34).

    past discussion on the topic:

    http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?33195-autoblock-self-belay&p=343903&viewfull=1#post343903



    Originally Posted by trackrunner
    This about covers how to tie most of the firction knots

    http://www.chockstone.org/techtips/Prusik.htm

    http://www.animatedknots.com/klemheist/index.php

    It's a helpful tool but should only be used on certain situations. Not something to play with just because it's cool. Not wise to use rappeling in a waterfall or swift water disconects. After the first person is down usually everone else can be fireman belayed. Another way to stop on rappel is the leg wrap.

    Discussion on the autoblock knots and application to canyoneering. Note I'm not trying to drive traffic to another forum. Just thought it was a good discussion to answer Felica's questions.

    http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93

    Um, well, maybe not. Rich is very anti-autobloc, and those knot-tying sites do not discuss the subtleties such as:

    1. Absolutely, not for use in waterfalls or moving water. Also, it will not "always" grab - if you flip upside down, it will reach to your rappel device and not grip. It is not a 100% foolproof technique (but it is pretty good).

    2. A good tool to know, and use selectively. In order to continue "knowing" it, you will have to practice it.

    3. The AutoBloc knot is very much preferred. Other knots (Kleimheist, prusik) once loaded are very, very difficult to release.

    4. The SETUP is very important. The LENGTH is very important. The Autobloc must be short enough to NOT reach up to your rappel device. If it hits your rappel device, the device will "tend" the autobloc, or will get stuck in the rappel device.

    5. The wraps will vary with your rope parameters. Each change in parameters will change how it performs. Size of rope, number of ropes, the wetness of the rope, the roughness of the rope, etc. Everything makes a difference.

    6. It works well when the ropes don't change. Guiding, we always use canyon pro, and our autoblocs are a pretied length. We use three wraps on a single strand, and four wraps on a double strand. On a regular trip, using several different ropes, it will work on some, and not on others.

    7. The SETUP: clip a carabiner to your leg loop, dominant side. clip the loop into the carabiner. Wrap the autobloc around the rope three or four times, and clip the end bight back into the same carabiner.

    8. Is it right? - the length needs to be such that the knot grabs the rope if you let go of everything. Add more wraps? Can. It needs to be loose enough to not grab so much as to be difficult. It needs to be short enough that it does not reach to the belay device.

    9. Modify the Setup: for many people, it will work better to extend your belay device a few inches, to keep it further from the autobloc. This is critical for children, youths and small women (small canyoneers). Usually helpful for men with a substantial pony keg (ie, table muscles, aka fat gut).

    10. While rappeling: for the autobloc to grab, it must move up the rope to an upper position. In order to "go", the autobloc must be held down a few inches so that it does not grab. It is better to hold it in a fixed position and let the rope slide through it; than to let it grab, then release it, grab/release, grab/release. Each time it grabs, it tends to grab tighter, and be harder to release. The "other hand" is the brake hand, controlling the flow of the rope, and can be either above or below the autobloc. I often start using my right hand on the autobloc, and then switch to the right hand below and the left hand on the autobloc once I get going.

    11. Some other tricks: CAN squeeze the rope through the autobloc, to gain a little more friction. CAN angle the rope through the autoblock to vary the amount of friction.

    12. Autoblocs can be made from 6mm cord, tied in a loop. Tie the ends using a double fishermans with very short tails, tighten well, then toss in the laundry for a couple cycles. They tend to be slick and not very grabby to start. Once they fuzz up they work well. After repeated dunkings and dryings, they get shorter, which makes them grabbier. For 6mm cord, a good cut length is: (Tom to go find and fill in later).

    13. At ZAC, we are now using sewn ones made by Sterling called Hollowblocs. I plan on carrying these in my store in the spring.

    I'll try to write this up with pictures ... (don't hold your breath).

    Tom

  19. #37
    Outdoor Guru hank moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose Droppings View Post
    Frictioning / Autoblocking might be good tool to add to your bag of tricks. At least for the first one on descent, permitting that person to free both hands so as to shake out the physical (& mental) pump, clear tangles, pass knots, escape and ascend if necessary, etc... Also could be useful for the newbie/inexperienced in the situation presented by reflection (post #34).

    Hi Moose

    Could you explain what you mean by "Frictioning / AUtoblocking" as I'm not familiar with this term. Ok, mainly I'm not familiar with "Frictioning" - especially as a technique that allows both hands free.

  20. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Hi Moose

    Could you explain what you mean by "Frictioning / AUtoblocking" as I'm not familiar with this term. Ok, mainly I'm not familiar with "Frictioning" - especially as a technique that allows both hands free.
    i'm quite positive that "frictioning" is not a word in the english language, however a couple of Europeans that i occasionally climb with (one being a UIAGM/IFGMA certified guide) use a pigeon term from their native tongue that roughly translates to "frictioning" in english...

    the idea behind "frictioning", at least how i understood/witnessed it, is that the friction knot of choice can be finessed with the brake-hand to control and/or vary the speed of descent. the varied speed is important when passing overhangs and undercuts.

    and in the event that you let go of the friction knot with your brake-hand, the knot will slide up the rope, cinch, and lock up. then you are free to move both hands about.

    i've found the system to work with double ropes, mis-matched doubles, as well as single 8mm rope.

    the best illustration and basically the system i ascribe to while mainly descending muplti-pitched rock/ice/alpine with occasional use while canyoneering can be found on the petzl site.






    see the ratagonia quote i referenced above covering the finer points of using an autoblock system.

  21. #39
    Adventurer Slot Machine's Avatar
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    So... here is how I set up my first 300 footer. After practicing with a wide variety of setups I eventually decided on this one.

    Name:  IMG_3756..jpg
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    Two biners with an ATC provided a good amount of friction at the top of the rappel and wasn't herky-jerky. Extending the rappel device allowed me to hold the brake like with my left hand comfortably while competing the Z-Rig. We used an 8mm Imlay Rope, while very fast, it was perfect for a 300 foot rappel.

    I completed the Z-Rig about 100 feet from the bottom. It worked great!

    We employed a top belay for everyone but me (I was last), and had excellent communication and assistance from the fireman belay at the bottom.

    The Bogley T-shirt helped with my self-confidence because I looked really cool on rappel. Looking cool is half the battle when it comes to canyoneering.

    Thanks everyone for the good advice!

  22. #40
    Trail Master
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    Congratulations are in order.............. for your 300 footer and for looking cool!!

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