first rope help?

[carspidey]

Hello all... i am new to this site and completely new to canyonering...

I am going out to Stoney Point this weekend around noon or a bit later to start practicing rappelling... i am planning on doing this off a low tree... i wont' do any vertical rappels until i feel confident on my technique...

i have everything but rope...

I really want to go out this Saturday and can't really wait till rope comes on the mail...

i have an REI closed to me and they have the following types of rope by the foot

Bluewater 2 plus
PMI ez bend sport
PMI max wear sport

All of the above are 11mm ropes, the last two are cheaper by 12 cents a foot...

I really want to get a good rope when i actually start going out canyoneering... REI has the BW 2 plus on sale for 105.00 for 150'... the thing is it is kind of heavey and it probalby won't be the rope that i will use whne i get to start canyoneering...

I was thinking maybe i could just get 30 to 50 feet of the rope offered by REI and practice with that... even with that length rope i should be able to rappel off of a few places in Stoney Point (single stranded and with a fixed anchor - i don't mind climbing back up to take apart the setup)...

Big question right now is are the mentioned ropes good? should i get one type over another?

thanks so much for your help...

[Iceaxe]

Rope info here:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?54979




Welcome to Bogley.

[carspidey]

Thanks Iceaxe...

actually i did read that thread before i created this one... maybe the title should have been a bit different?

I am still looking for the right rope for canyoneering... i was looking at Immlays and the Sterling based on comments on that thread...

My question was more specific as to what do you guys thing i should get from the three brands offer at REI to start practicing on? i do understand that 11mm rope is not going to be good in the long run but i was just thinking of buying 30 to 50 feet of it from my local REI...

any help here?

[xxnitsuaxx]

Don't get an 11 mm. You'll never actually take it canyoneering and you won't really get a feel for rappelling if you do it on a rope that thick. i'd find a 9mm, 10mm and the VERY thickest.

[spinesnaper]

Hi Carspidey

Before I venture an answer, and there are others on this forum far better qualified than I to precisely answer this question, I just wanted to make an off point comment. Carspidey's question is precisely the sort of new to canyoneering question that can engender responses that sound not so friendly to noobs.

SO back on point. When I read your question it makes me wonder. Clearly you have done your homework and understand that for canyoneering, static ropes are preferred, some would say essential, for canyoneering. So if we provide that answer, the next concern is does this mean that you will be standing at the edge of a precipice with a piece of rope, some type of implements and perhaps a book trying to figure out how to rappel at Stoney Point? If so I think 92% of the Bogley Canyoneering community would be upset about this. I think the other 8 percent would be split between those who would be amused by the question or the possible responses and I think there would be a small contingent that would think that it was cool that you might try to figure it all out on your own.

Can I suggest that if you have not previously rappelled, trying to figure out this skill without the guidance of someone with some experience is not such a good idea. Gravity extracts a significant price for errors. In the Los Angeles Area, Sports Chalet and REI have some relatively inexpensive introductory rock climbing courses where you would get excellent guidance in developing these skills safely. ATS canyoneering school also runs single and multi day canyoneering courses locally.

If you are uncomfortable with this advice, please feel free to PM me and I will give you my phone number and we can talk personally. If I am way off base please understand it is the voice of concern. By the way Adventure 16 has some pricey static rope. Personally I really like Tom Jones' Imlay ropes.

Ken

[ratagonia]

Ken -

Well said, all points.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

My question was more specific as to what do you guys thing i should get from the three brands offer at REI to start practicing on? i do understand that 11mm rope is not going to be good in the long run but i was just thinking of buying 30 to 50 feet of it from my local REI...any help here?

The answer is "d", none of the above.

Get a useful length and diameter that you can use downstream, so to speak.

[Brian in SLC]

Stoney Point, if folks haven't been or seen, is a popular spot for especially rock climbing in LA County in the San Fernando Valley:



I'd probably suggest getting a full 50 or 60m rope for the place, just 'cause that's the length folks use. 60m preferably.

A lot of the crag is available in the 50 foot range, which, for me would mean 100 feet of rope at a minimum. Some folks who climb there have short ropes just for the stuff they do routinely.

But...by far the most popular style there is:



Anyhoo, you might give a shout to any of the local folks on some of the climbing boards that frequent there. They might be willing to take you under their wing.

Popular spot. No doubt haunted by the spirit of long time internet troller Juan de Fuca, rockstar, prowsolo, aka Jeff Battan. I hear UCLA coed's still call out his name at Stoney...

[Deathcricket]

Hi and welcome! I actually have that REI rope and still use it for top roping when we rock climb. I recently bought a couple more ropes, but until last summer I took the 11 mil through canyons up here. It's noticeably heavier and has a bit more friction, but it works just fine IMO. And it lasts forever! The thin canyoneer ropes wear out noticeably faster. In fact this new canyonero I just bought like 5 months ago is wearing out really fast. I've done maybe like 6 canyons and it's looking very very ragged. I'll be surprised if I get another year out of it. The only thing is I honestly don't recall what brand it was I bought from REI, it was like 5-6 years ago, it was white with red lacing. Does that help? Whatever brand it was I highly recommend it, it's taken a supreme beating and still looks almost pristine condition. I'm especially hard on it rock climbing, the top rope belays are usually rubbing hard against the rope face and we fall on it constantly. I have a video actually of the last time I used it. let me see where did I put that..... I think it was in Birch Hollow as a backup rope... I kept the video because it's hilarious and I went super slow, hopefully if you view it, you can determine what brand I ended up getting. It's quite a difference in friction as you can imagine, for some reason I was thinking going single on 11mil would be the same as going double stranded on the thin stuff. Turns out even using two ropes the friction is much less. You'll notice in the video my piranna is set to almost max friction, but you can rap fine on lower settings.

But yes, you can absolutely take thicker ropes canyoneering. Yes the thinner stuff is lighter by a couple pounds and has insanely less friction, but if you are comfortable carrying it, no biggie. I'm sure with a little research you could determine the exact weight, but I would be surprised if it was more than a 3 pound difference. Of course I bring beers when I go, so pack weight isn't that important to me as it might be to others. I can also attest that it lasts forever and you'll find other uses for it later. Go buy some and have fun!

[carspidey]

Hi Carspidey

Before I venture an answer, and there are others on this forum far better qualified than I to precisely answer this question, I just wanted to make an off point comment. Carspidey's question is precisely the sort of new to canyoneering question that can engender responses that sound not so friendly to noobs.

SO back on point. When I read your question it makes me wonder. Clearly you have done your homework and understand that for canyoneering, static ropes are preferred, some would say essential, for canyoneering. So if we provide that answer, the next concern is does this mean that you will be standing at the edge of a precipice with a piece of rope, some type of implements and perhaps a book trying to figure out how to rappel at Stoney Point? If so I think 92% of the Bogley Canyoneering community would be upset about this. I think the other 8 percent would be split between those who would be amused by the question or the possible responses and I think there would be a small contingent that would think that it was cool that you might try to figure it all out on your own.

Can I suggest that if you have not previously rappelled, trying to figure out this skill without the guidance of someone with some experience is not such a good idea. Gravity extracts a significant price for errors. In the Los Angeles Area, Sports Chalet and REI have some relatively inexpensive introductory rock climbing courses where you would get excellent guidance in developing these skills safely. ATS canyoneering school also runs single and multi day canyoneering courses locally.

If you are uncomfortable with this advice, please feel free to PM me and I will give you my phone number and we can talk personally. If I am way off base please understand it is the voice of concern. By the way Adventure 16 has some pricey static rope. Personally I really like Tom Jones' Imlay ropes.

Ken

Thanks so much Ken for the advice here and on the phone.

Just to summarize, my intent was not to go out rappelling just yet... reason why i wanted to go to Stoney Point is because it wouldn't look so bad trying stuff there rather than outside my apartment :D

I am not planning to rappel just yet... just wanted to practice on a tree maybe couple feet of the ground... practice knots and the stuff i've been reading about...

I do have a friend that will help me with the rappelling part but for sure i am contemplating taking a class for canyoneering...

again... thanks for your help and advice Ken... it is really appreciated...

And everyone else too... thanks for posting your thoughts and comments...

thanks...

[carspidey]

Hi and welcome! I actually have that REI rope and still use it for top roping when we rock climb. I recently bought a couple more ropes, but until last summer I took the 11 mil through canyons up here. It's noticeably heavier and has a bit more friction, but it works just fine IMO. And it lasts forever! The thin canyoneer ropes wear out noticeably faster. In fact this new canyonero I just bought like 5 months ago is wearing out really fast. I've done maybe like 6 canyons and it's looking very very ragged. I'll be surprised if I get another year out of it. The only thing is I honestly don't recall what brand it was I bought from REI, it was like 5-6 years ago, it was white with red lacing. Does that help? Whatever brand it was I highly recommend it, it's taken a supreme beating and still looks almost pristine condition. I'm especially hard on it rock climbing, the top rope belays are usually rubbing hard against the rope face and we fall on it constantly. I have a video actually of the last time I used it. let me see where did I put that..... I think it was in Birch Hollow as a backup rope... I kept the video because it's hilarious and I went super slow, hopefully if you view it, you can determine what brand I ended up getting. It's quite a difference in friction as you can imagine, for some reason I was thinking going single on 11mil would be the same as going double stranded on the thin stuff. Turns out even using two ropes the friction is much less. You'll notice in the video my piranna is set to almost max friction, but you can rap fine on lower settings.

But yes, you can absolutely take thicker ropes canyoneering. Yes the thinner stuff is lighter by a couple pounds and has insanely less friction, but if you are comfortable carrying it, no biggie. I'm sure with a little research you could determine the exact weight, but I would be surprised if it was more than a 3 pound difference. Of course I bring beers when I go, so pack weight isn't that important to me as it might be to others. I can also attest that it lasts forever and you'll find other uses for it later. Go buy some and have fun!

Thanks for the advice...

cool video too... :D

question on the video... are you going slow because of the 11mm rope? does it create that much friction?

[carspidey]

The answer is "d", none of the above.

Get a useful length and diameter that you can use downstream, so to speak.

the reason why i wanted the 30 to 50 feet was just to practice knots and just simple stuff... i wasn't thinking of rappelling yet...

thanks...

[ratagonia]

the reason why i wanted the 30 to 50 feet was just to practice knots and just simple stuff... i wasn't thinking of rappelling yet...

thanks...

Yeah, but if you got 60 feet, you'd have a rope that would work on a couple of canyons in Zion.

T

[carspidey]

Yeah, but if you got 60 feet, you'd have a rope that would work on a couple of canyons in Zion.

T

exactly what ken told me too... :D

i really like this forum... i am considering my real "first" rope to be an Imlay :D

[wasatchghost]

i am considering my real "first" rope to be an Imlay :D

[Dan-wild]

I am, relatively, a noob as well as you are, but I bought the 9.2mm Imlay Canyoneero, (thanks Tom) and it is FREAKING AMAZING ! I have done canyons with an 11mm rope and it was just not the same. This thing does not hold nearly as much water, I can pack it smaller, and it comes in really pretty colors for pictures (as trivial as it sounds it IS a bad-ass feature), and the only down side I can think of is that it is stiff due to the reinforced sheath. That "down-side" also creates an upside by making it stronger, more resilient, and resistant to rope-pulls and the like. I read a quote in a mountaineering book, "ropes don't break, they cut." The reinforced sheath on the Canyoneero will 'cut' down the chances of it getting cut on rock. Great rope.

[oldno7]

Can't go wrong with a ICG rope.
They are "very" durable, as a new canyoneer, stay with the 9mm ropes.

[deagol]

when I first got into canyoneering, I thought "I am a rock climber, so I already have the gear". Boy was I wrong. I was amazed at the difference in gear and technique. At first I was skeptical, but now it makes a lot more sense. I may not have gotten into it if I knew I would have to spend a lot more $$$, but it's too late now..
Edit: what a cool looking cliff/waterfall. Thanks for posting.

[Deathcricket]

question on the video... are you going slow because of the 11mm rope? does it create that much friction?

No I have the friction set too high. Notice how the rope goes behind both those little horns on my belay device? That is almost the maximum friction setting you can possibly use. Putting the rope in front of one or both makes you go faster down the rope. So it was my fault setting it too high and not the ropes fault. But I had been using the other rope you see in the video which is very thin and very fast, forgot the proper setting and just set it too high erring on the side of caution. Like I said before that is the same setting I use for a double rap on the thinner stuff, so I thought 2 thin ropes would be the same as one thicker rope, and i was very wrong. I also was the first guy down, had no belay, and we couldn't see the bottom to even know if the ropes touched on the thinner stuff. So I used the longer fatter rope, which we knew was long enough, then everyone else used the skinnier on a double after i verified the ends touched the ground. :)

Just be aware that people actually die when they set their friction too low, it's very dangerous. What rappel device are you using and do you know how to adjust the friction for that? It would be a good idea to familiarize yourself with all the friction settings it offers before you go out. I know you have a buddy to help you, but at the worst it would be a refresher course. Why not hear something 2x that could save your life right?

Do you have a garage? I can offer advice on how to setup a rap station for under $10. Just using a couple 2x4's and some decking screws. You can practice in your garage all day long and only go 6-7 feet off the ground. And afterwards it make a great chin up bar.

[MrAdam]

Do you have a garage? I can offer advice on how to setup a rap station for under $10. Just using a couple 2x4's and some decking screws. You can practice in your garage all day long and only go 6-7 feet off the ground. And afterwards it make a great chin up bar.

I would be interested in setting something like this up in my garage to practice rope techniques, and the chin up bar wouldnt hurt either!