Results 81 to 98 of 98
-
12-09-2013, 06:55 PM #81
I also recognize this is an old thread (18 months) and as such i find it odd/annoying that Eldofool resurrected it. However, since it has been resurrected, I must strongly disagree with you Tom. The only cause of the accident was letting go with his brake hand. Period. Never let go with your brake hand while rappelling. Ever. Unless unconscious, then, still don't let go of the rope. If you want to say the victim made a mistake choosing to do a class c canyon, fine. I refuse to believe any adult is "taken" into the backcountry. Recent experience with Salt Lake SAR reinforces this concept: Our last 10 call-outs were a result of 8 mistakes and 2 medical situations. 0 "accidents".
-
12-09-2013 06:55 PM # ADS
-
12-09-2013, 08:34 PM #82
And how many of those were because people chose to do something that was inappropriate for their skill level?
I realize there is usually a "tactical" reason for the accident, and a "strategic" reason for the accident. You are focused on the "tactical"; I am focused on the "strategic" because I think there is more to learn by doing so. A beginner rapping on a slippery rappel, slipping, hitting the wall hard and letting go is not an unexpected event. Which is why there is a moral imperative to provide a bottom belay to beginners.
Tom
-
12-09-2013, 08:57 PM #83
-
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesratagonia liked this post
-
12-09-2013, 09:27 PM #84
I agree that a bottom belay is usually, perhaps always, a good practice. And yes, exceeding one's abilities is often a contributing factor. The problem I have is when you say someone was "taken" on a trip or blame is placed on a "trip leader". Can we agree that adults, young adults, even older teens have personal responsibility for safety?
-
12-10-2013, 08:19 AM #85
No absolutes out there....and your plea for agreement raises a question that could have a very large answer. Here is a small one for now:
There is a range of responsibility for the individual and for the group, the level of which is proportional to the ability/experience level of the individual
-
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesratagonia liked this post
-
12-11-2013, 02:08 AM #86
Blind leading the naked...
Its a quandary. If you're in and part of a group, there's group think and all that. Sometimes no one wants to mention an unsafe or less-than-skilled person in the group, for whatever reason. So, in some of these accidents, its not necessarily the "group leader's" fault, but, anyone, really, in the group that did see an issue with a person's lack of experience but didn't say anything. Hugely common, methinks, especially in groups of young men or mixed parties.
Underlying cause for a large number of avalanche fatalities, methinks. Group think (or lack of). Group dynamics.
Sure, you can blame an unskilled or inexperienced person with their decision to do something over their heads...but...I think that the people in their group also accept some of that responsibility for recognizing such.
I see it in climbing all the time. Safety, or lack of, fairly common even amongst very experienced people. And certain practises. I manage to meet new people both canyoning and climbing on a fairly regular basis. The mating ritual for partnership can't be just verbal. Most folks are full of crap about their skills. You have to observe them. And, speak up and show an example of correct skills if need be. Otherwise...when an accident happens...I think its partly on you.
Case in point. My habit, even when climbing short pitches, is to find the blunt end of the rope and I tie a figure eight on a bite (some folks just a quick overhand knot, I like the loop, I can clip it, and, its big enough to notice). When I partner with someone I don't know, and, they flake the rope, do they do this? If not, then, I do it. Couple of weeks ago, two different partners I climbed with for the first time. Both very saavy. One, knot in the end of the rope, one, not. So, I did. We ended up not moving the rope to climb an adjacent pitch to a very short one, but, as I'd done my knot bight habit...that the route turned out to be 30m long, and, not in the guidebook, which, was a surprise, we didn't get the ultimate surprise by lowering off the end of the rope. Wasn't a close call, because, we both noticed the rope length, but, still, a good reminder for a saftey habit.
Anyhoo....the blame game...interesting...
-
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likeshank moon liked this post
-
12-11-2013, 07:22 AM #87
Timely read...go Ali O!
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news...-going-outside
Quote below:
Encourage any gym climber you know to take classes. To read up. To hire a guide (see amga.com)—especially in learning the additional complexities and risks of trad climbing. It’s worth whatever money it takes. There is so much to learn in climbing, and in this sport we can’t afford to learn from our mistakes.
If you see someone erring out at the crags, speak up. Your opinion may not be welcome (mine sure wasn’t last time I tried), but you could prevent an accident, and will at least gain peace of mind from trying.
And while we are at it, here are two things for each of us to do every time, a matter of sustained vigilance. Most of the accidents this magazine sees could be prevented with these steps. We could fill the Accident Report every single issue with incidents regarding the latter.
• Visually check each other’s knots and belay setups every pitch, or at least ask, before a person leaves the ground, “How’s your knot?” When you untie and tie in five or 10 times a day at a sport crag, it’s too easy to mess up, and to neglect to check. Check.
• Always have a knot in the end of your rope, when belaying, lowering and rappelling. Not just neophytes but experienced climbers neglect this all the time. I personally know six people—six—who have accidentally dropped someone when the rope end slipped through a belay device. Just tie the knot!
-
Post Thanks / Like - 2 Likes
-
12-11-2013, 08:56 AM #88
You seem to be thinking that all 'adults' are capable of managing their own safety. They are not. It takes a while for some people (and QUITE a while for others) to develop enough skill to manage their own safety. They are "being taken", whether acknowledged by the experienced people in the group or not.
As an experienced person, Taylor, I am sure you are aware that YOUR safety is effected by the safety of everyone else . It IS your responsibility that everyone else in the group be safe, if for nothing more than selfish reasons. No man is an island, etc. etc.
Nothing irritates me more than people who have accidents or rescues and then blame it on their partner. "There were two slow people in the party who slowed us down..." "My partner was not up for it..." I translate these to: "Because I am an idiot, I let my big frakkin ego drive the agenda rather than choosing an adventure appropriate for the group, or a group appropriate for the agenda".
Your statement, Taylor, annoys me considerable (nothing personal) because it is this attitude that has resulted in several accidents this year, including at least one death. We can learn from accidents by looking at the underlying causes of them, but saying some beginner should not have let go of the brake hand is like pegging the cause of an avalanche death as: "the snow came down and buried them".
Tom
-
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesrex welshon liked this post
-
12-13-2013, 07:48 AM #89
I made this mistake once. Tied the figure 8 correctly about 400 times and then once at a gym I got a little too relaxed. As I was being lowered I realized I had somehow tied into my leg loop instead of my tie points on my harness. Now its double check everytime, everytime.
Riverside Mountain Rescue Unit
http://www.rmru.org/
Personal Website
http://www.DrunkRedDragon.com/adventures.htm
-
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesratagonia liked this post
-
12-14-2013, 02:13 PM #90
-
12-14-2013, 03:16 PM #91
So Im not the only one to do that! Was more concerned with getting three newbies and my now wife through Echo safely than I was with myself. After my group rapelled down and one got lowered into the pothole, I rigged quickly and weighted the rope. Luckily, I always stay anchored until I know I am fully on the rope. When I leaned back and gave a little tug, a stitch in my gear loop popped. I learned that hanging my totem from my gear loop between rappels was a bad idea. Now I always leave it on my belay loop and clip the other end across to a gear loop to keep it out of the way.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
-
Post Thanks / Like - 1 LikesBrian in SLC liked this post
-
12-16-2013, 06:32 AM #92
I had a biner just hooked to the belt of my harness (since it made stuffing the rope bag easer when clipped there). I "forgot" this and I clipped my rap device to it - instead of the belay/rappel loop- unthinkingly and did the 2nd rap in Cassidy free hanging like that. Things felt weird but I didn't know what was wrong until I figured it out in the free hanging section. That really sucked..
-
12-16-2013, 12:12 PM #93
Sorry by resurrecting this thread I annoyed anybody. Not my intention.
I have to agree with Tom that not everyone is capable of having good judgement in the outdoors. Not everyone has gained requisite experience. That is why people often hire guides.
Also have to agree with Tom that one of the keys to a safe outing is proper terrain selection. I know as a climbing guide that getting my guests on the right climb is often the difference between having a successful day or not. And here I talk primarily about enjoyment, not safety, because on a guided climbing day, in any terrain where the consequences / probability of a fall reach a (low) threshold, they are on a rope. And they never rappel without a belay or fireman's.
The point that I contrast with canyoneering is how much of a canyon outing is spent unroped, and often in exposed situations. Experience level must be factored into proper canyon selection, and in my experience, especially in groups, is not often factored, for various reason (for example, not everyone needs to be exposed to all risk in a canyon, hence it is often tempting to bring less-experienced people along on serious outings).
-
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesratagonia liked this post
-
12-16-2013, 02:43 PM #94
Anyone making the personal responsibility claim, please answer the following:
Where do we get our decisions from?
Ok that was a loaded question, it's our brains. We know that two things develop our brain as such, DNA and experience. Neither of these two are solely dictated by the individual, indeed this would require an omnipotent perspective beyond that o the protobrain. What? Blaming someone for an unfortunate outcome is to ignore the DNA and experience which shaped said outcome. So save the "personal responsibility" arguement for the correct venue. A place where DNA and experience are irrelevant. Save it for church.
-
12-16-2013, 05:24 PM #95
Whoa. A very unusual addition to this thread.
Many very smart people have written volumes on this subject... and it is still entirely murky. Certainly having an uber-being is the easy way out, but... clarity in the realm of free will (free agency) has so far escaped humankind - or perhaps I just don't like the answer the people that "have clarity" on this issue have come up with...
-
12-17-2013, 08:06 AM #96
-
Post Thanks / Like - 2 LikesSRG, Absolute Gravity liked this post
-
12-22-2013, 05:43 AM #97
@mget, do you even comprehend for a moment how utterly destructive your claim is for a society? How completely contrary to the history of man it is? How evil triumphs over good with a societal construct like that?
-
12-22-2013, 04:09 PM #98We know that two things develop our brain as such, DNA and experience. Neither of these two are solely dictated by the individual,How completely contrary to the history of man it is?
-
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesratagonia liked this post
Similar Threads
-
[Trip Report] Rubio Canyon (Los Angeles Area)
By ag23 in forum CanyoneeringReplies: 4Last Post: 11-17-2011, 02:58 PM -
[Trip Report] 3BIII - Rubio Canyon, CA - 9/3/11
By Eric Holden in forum CanyoneeringReplies: 5Last Post: 09-09-2011, 07:27 AM -
Rocky Mouth Canyon Accident
By jumar in forum CanyoneeringReplies: 1Last Post: 05-12-2008, 08:54 AM -
Rocky Mouth Canyon Accident
By jumar in forum Climbing, Caving & MountaineeringReplies: 0Last Post: 05-12-2008, 07:12 AM