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Thread: The Super Amazing Canyoneering Map

  1. #41
    Map Update:

    The National Park Service has noticed that the marker for Lomatium Canyon is placed in the incorrect location. They also pointed out that Lomatium Canyon normally requires a guide to lead most people to the entrance point and would prefer not having canyoneers running amok on the cryptobiotic soil looking for the entrance. Please consider using a guide service or hiking with a canyoneer familiar with the area when canyoneering in the Fiery Furnace. Please be considerate when visiting this area so that the Park Service continues to keep it open to canyoneering.

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  3. #42
    Bob-

    You might want to consider removing Lomatium from the map altogether. The Park Service currently does not allow guided trips within the park, so unless people know someone who has been in there before (and can actually remember the way to the entrance) they are going to go looking on their own. If this happens, the Park Service will close the route to everyone. There has been much discussion about this route on Bogley, and because of the sensitivity of the access, it is the general consensus to not post anything on the web about it's whereabouts.

  4. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by canyondevil View Post
    Bob-

    You might want to consider removing Lomatium from the map altogether. The Park Service currently does not allow guided trips within the park, so unless people know someone who has been in there before (and can actually remember the way to the entrance) they are going to go looking on their own. If this happens, the Park Service will close the route to everyone. There has been much discussion about this route on Bogley, and because of the sensitivity of the access, it is the general consensus to not post anything on the web about it's whereabouts.

    X 2

  5. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by canyondevil View Post
    Bob-

    You might want to consider removing Lomatium from the map altogether. The Park Service currently does not allow guided trips within the park, so unless people know someone who has been in there before (and can actually remember the way to the entrance) they are going to go looking on their own. If this happens, the Park Service will close the route to everyone. There has been much discussion about this route on Bogley, and because of the sensitivity of the access, it is the general consensus to not post anything on the web about it's whereabouts.
    The Park Service requested that I move the marker to the parking area. I thought their request was a fair so I complied. I will also include a marker for Krill canyon in the same location.

    The park service does allow one company to guide people through Lomatium and Krill.

    Finding info on Lomatium is easy, there is lots of stuff floating around out there including a nice Trip Report on Bogley. Figuring out the route is a different matter. I would hope people are not foolish enough to push their luck with the Park Service in Arches and wander around trying to figure it out on their own.

    As far as not posting anything on The Map about Lomatium... well, that goes against what I am trying to create. If there is a canyon anywhere that is significant to the canyoneering community I hope to map it. We should (and eventually will) share the same basic info.

    Bob

  6. #45
    Currently no Guide Service is allowed to guide in the Park. The Park is reviewing the Management Plan for Canyoneering and Climbing in Arches. Lomatium and Krill are in a very sensitive area and to bring any attention to these locations at this times does not benefit anyone in the Canyoneering Community.
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...anagement-Plan

  7. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    The park service does allow one company to guide people through Lomatium and Krill.
    Bob
    And who might that be? Your excellent Googling skills should be able to enlighten us.

  8. #47
    Mark and Devil,

    I'm not going to dwell in the minutia of who can guide or what area is sensitive. My map is purely objective.

    I've thought of a concept, I'll call it the Mt Everest analogy.

    If my favorite hangout spot is on the peak of Mt Everest, and I decide to map it on Google Earth, then how people use that information is up to them. If they climb and damage the environment, if they climb and Nepal decides to close the mountain, or if someone climbs and perishes (not that I wish that on anyone) that is the responsibility of the climber - not me, for pointing out the peak.

    I can not emphisize this point enough - I am pointing out peaks of the Himalayas, not telling anyone how to climb them.

    If people damage Everest, get banned from Everest or die on Everest, it is not the responsibility of the first person to map Everest.

    Bob
    Last edited by Slot Machine; 02-16-2012 at 09:43 PM. Reason: decided not to dwell in minutia

  9. #48
    Bob scan up to the top of Matt's site and you will see where he talks about the Park Service removing his permit.


    The managers of Arches National Park are currently developing a Canyoneering Management Plan. Until that plan is completed (expected to be this fall), no guided canyoneering trips can be offered in the Park. The canyons listed above that are crossed out are all in the Park. In the meantime, please consider one of the many awesome trips that take place outside the park (the ones that aren't crossed out!). Give us a call if you have any questions. Thanks!

  10. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Mark and Devil,

    I'm not going to dwell in the minutia of who can guide or what area is sensitive. My map is purely objective.
    .........
    .......
    Hi Bob

    Everything that involves people is political. Your map is political. The park can and eventually will close sensitive areas if they are overrun by enough insensitive canyoneers - and it doesn't take many to make an impact in the furnace. Including sensitive areas on a broadband map will hasten the process. Just saying (the obvious). :)

  11. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Hi Bob

    Everything that involves people is political. Your map is political. The park can and eventually will close sensitive areas if they are overrun by enough insensitive canyoneers - and it doesn't take many to make an impact in the furnace. Including sensitive areas on a broadband map will hasten the process. Just saying (the obvious). :)
    Hi Hank,

    Yes I understand. It is up to the canyoneering community to decide what to do with information on the map. Pretending the canyon isn't there certainly isn't the answer. Deleting it from my map isn't an option (respectfully). I thought the people from the Park Service came up with a pretty good solution.

    Bob

  12. #51
    Most anyone that will seek out these routes will know they are in the furnace. I don't know if placing a marker at the parking lot will draw additional attention, or cause more abuse to the area. I don't believe so.

    Just a thought as a compromise... anyone that does these routes will need to get a permit for the furnace from the Arches visitor's center. Since the route essentially starts there, what about placing the markers at the visitor's center?

  13. #52

  14. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Pretending the canyon isn't there certainly isn't the answer.
    Hi Bob, can you elaborate on that? Who or what is or has been pretending the canyon isn't there?

    Lomatium, for example?

  15. #54
    If a map shows hundreds of canyons, are the ones that are marked in a parking lot really going to attract that much attention??? Just sayin.

    Also I think you missed water canyon in hildale by one drainage, pretty sure it's this one 37

  16. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Hi Bob, can you elaborate on that? Who or what is or has been pretending the canyon isn't there?

    Lomatium, for example?
    I'm saying that removing the Lomatium marker from the map is as productive as pretending the canyon doesn't exist.

    Bob

  17. #56
    Also, if you Google "Lomatium Canyon" you get 654 results. It was very easy to figure out where that canyon is roughly located. There are many photos embedded in Google Earth, there are many photos online, and Desert Highlights still has the canyons on their website. I wouldn't ask that anyone remove any of those things from the internet. The effort would be a waste of time.

    The Map doesn't give away any info that is not easily discovered on the internet. I plan to leave Lomatium and Krill on the map and hope people handle that information responsibly.

    Bob

  18. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Also, if you Google "Lomatium Canyon" you get 654 results. It was very easy to figure out where that canyon is roughly located. There are many photos embedded in Google Earth, there are many photos online, and Desert Highlights still has the canyons on their website. I wouldn't ask that anyone remove any of those things from the internet. The effort would be a waste of time.

    The Map doesn't give away any info that is not easily discovered on the internet. I plan to leave Lomatium and Krill on the map and hope people handle that information responsibly.

    Bob

    Yah, makes sense - thanks for the reply, bob, and keep on mappin' (responsibly) :)

  19. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    pretending the canyon doesn't exist.

    Bob
    That is exactly what we are going to be doing when the NPS shuts it down to us. Bob, you need to take a look at your canyoneering ethics. Ethics are not just about not bolting and what color of webbing to use. Ethics are also about doing everything possible to keep access to these prestine places for everyone to enjoy. We are not trying to make this a "secret canyon" or an "elitist preserve", we are just wanting to keep it off the radar as much as we possibly can so that we can enjoy it in the future. Lomatium and Krill have been on think ice for a long time with the NPS, and you are no doubt just adding to the problem by having them advertised on your map. Although you probably dont care, because all you are doing is trying to be the guy who made the "Super Amazing Canyoneering Map". If you would spend half the time out exploring canyons that you do researching them on the internet, you would actually get the concept we are talking about.

  20. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by canyondevil View Post
    If you would spend half the time out exploring canyons that you do researching them on the internet, you would actually get the concept we are talking about.
    Aaaannnnnd they're back! Wooot!
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    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  21. #60
    First off.... Lomatium is not a canyon, it's a route that winds through the sandstone fins of the furnace. The route is really more of a deviation/addition to the ranger guided route that requires a rappel and visits a small area not accessible to your average tourist.

    I appreciate Slot Machine moving his marker out of the furnace to the parking lot/trailhead, which to me actually makes more sense since its not a canyon but a loop hike requiring ropes. I don't think its any big secret in the canyoneering community that Lomatium is inside the furnace.

    Instead of bitching about what is or isn't on a map, maybe a better use of time would be to mentor and educate. Those who have been in the furnace need to offer their time and experience to those that haven't to make certain we can keep this valuable and unique resource open. In the end the only way we will keep this resource open is through education.

    To Slot Machine... I know you are excited about your new map, But understand Arches NP in currently in the middle of writing the rules and regulations that will govern climbing and canyoneering inside the park for the next 20 or 30 years. Please avoid making any waves with the NPS that will cost us all in the near future. If the area is closed to canyoneering you will be removing pins from your map next year and not adding more. Just don't be in a big hurry to stick pins in Arches MP for the time being, hopefully the new management plan will be complete by this time next year and you can stick pins in Arches NP to your hearts content, in addition to giving you a good reason to update your map and bump the thread.

    To all.... using moderation with regards to Arches at the moment is a great idea. To those that want more information on what is currently needed from the canyoneering community in regards to Arches at this time please read this thread:
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?61392



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