Super Amazing Slots?

[Slot Machine]

An enlightening offline discussion convinced me that publishing the beta on the
Dante's (Canyon's #3-#5) might be squandering a rare and valuable thing- a
natural resource that is pristine and mysterious.

I have an idea that might preserve and protect the Dante's and create a new
challenge for canyoneers.

What if the canyoneering community set aside the Dante's as a designated
exploration area? Kind of like a test for well rounded canyoneers that want the
extra challenge of the unknown? Do your own route finding, pack for the worst
etc.

Is this a foolhardy idea putting people at risk? Are these good canyons to
create a virtual exploration environment?

Obviously you can still do "show, don't tell", but it might eliminate the
"secret handshake" tension.

These Dante's ethic's that would be the only shared infromation (a very rough
draft):
The SandTrap works well in these canyons.
You must be a well rounded canyoneer, proficient in leaving no rope gooves.
These canyons are physical and dangerous.
Pack for bear and do your best to leave nothing in the canyon (especially
bolts).
Please don't share your knowledge or photos.

Is this an insane idea? Or maybe a chance to set aside an exploration preserve
(I think Tom coined this term)?

People could post a community expectation for the Dante's on their beta
websites?

Tom? Shane? Everybody? Your thoughts?

Bob

[Iceaxe]

Isn't that what it is right now? At least until one of the powers of beta puts fingers to keyboard and types out a route description and gives it a dedicated place on the interwebs?

[Slot Machine]

Isn't that what it is right now?

It depends. Only if all of the beta publishers know each other and there is a
silent agreement amongst those publishers.

I'm wondering if a page on your website explaining the Dante's might discourage
the next Slot Machine from starting another thread revealing all of the secrets
of the Dante's?

Bob

[Simple]

Hi all,

I've been following this thread since it started and it has finally pushed me to register and become a bogley member. I just have a few thoughts on this topic.

In a world dominated by one species as destructive as the human race, there are things that should be preserved. This preservation needs active involvement to be achieved. The only reason The Wave is still so wonderful is because of the protection of the permit system. However, many canyons do not fall under the protection of the government. Many wonderful, beautiful slots lie outside national parks and reserves. I hate that I cannot go anywhere in the world and not see the work, or rather damage of man. The world is getting smaller with faster transportation and ever available information. Because the canyoneering community has no set, agreed upon code of ethics someone needs take the responsibility of preserving these works of art. I believe that the "Show, don't tell" method takes this responsibility on.

There are obviously some sore spots among members of the canyoneering community concerning the "Show, don't tell" method. The problem with this method is that it creates an "us" and "them" mentality. People feel left out. However, if we can more efficiently use the web to create a more united community, this method could become a good way to train new canyoneers, decreasing injuries and deaths, and useful in creating a universal code of ethics, preserving the art now and in the future.

If we, as a community, could create a forum or something of the sort where people could sign up to do "Show, don't tell" canyons more openly then it could help unify. If I wanted to descend Inferno or one of the many other "secret" canyons, I should be able to post somewhere on this fancy Interweb, "I want to hike Inferno, will someone show me?" And after I have been shown I should be able to show someone else because I have been trained by someone who has good canyon ethics. I understand that this is kind of how the system currently works, but it needs to be more readily available and public.

My last thought is that we all need to treat each other with respect. None of this would have happened if SaraT was asked to remove her pictures in a respectful manner. Obviously I don't know exactly how everything when down, but if we all firstly assume a misunderstanding has occurred instead of purposeful wrong doing a lot of unnecessary conflict can be avoided.

Steph

[Iceaxe]

Because the canyoneering community has no set, agreed upon code of ethics someone needs take the responsibility of preserving these works of art. I believe that the "Show, don't tell" method takes this responsibility on.

Great first post.

For those playing along at home.... the canyoneering community has already established several routes that fall into this type of special category for various reasons. probably the two most well known are Lomatium and Krill. To date a route had to have a legitimate reason respected by most/all for having such a lofty status bestowed upon it.

I would be curious to hear the reasons that Canyons #3-#5 should receive this type of designation?

I find the idea of a "training ground" of unbetaed canyons intriguing, that would help the entire community up their game (get some skills). My problem with "show don't tell" is that is really not what you are doing. Instead of a printed paint by numbers route guide you are just dragging your breathing beta supply along with you.

[RAM]

Great first post.

For those playing along at home.... the canyoneering community has already established several routes that fall into this type of special category for various reasons. probably the two most well known are Lomatium and Krill. To date a route had to have a legitimate reason respected by most/all for having such a lofty status bestowed upon it.

I would be curious to hear the reasons that Canyons #3-#5 should receive this type of designation?

I find the idea of a "training ground" of unbetaed canyons intriguing, that would help the entire community up their game (get some skills). My problem with "show don't tell" is that is really not what you are doing. Instead of a printed paint by numbers route guide you are just dragging your breathing beta supply along with you.

Lomatium and Krill are good examples, because the access is so tenuous. The best reason I can think of for these canyons might find that status is because they are poised to be used in that way already, if the community is serious about experimenting with a new way to occasionally share canyons


I have a suggestion to adress one of your concerns .....It is a long running policy, among my many partners, that people who have not been in the canyon before, get the lead. In fact if you have been before, then grab the lead, someone will likely call you out on it. A nice policy. "Show but don't tell" canyons have a long history of placing the problem solving in the hands of the folks being 'shown." Those in the canyon for the first time can and do ask for help sometimes. Sometimes time pressure or a nasty silo might mitigate, but vast majority of the time, on trips I am on, the lead and the problem solving is given to those who have not been before. Others may like this approach.
ram

[Iceaxe]

I use that technique most of the time with my kids.... they are gaining skills very fast with that approach.

But still, having your breathing beta (or dad) along is not even close to the same thing as an exploration. Let's see if I can figure out the problem is an entirely different animal from I have to figure out the problem.

FWIW: I see no problem with giving the "training ground" a try, worse that can happen is it doesn't work.

Just food for thought....

[CarpeyBiggs]

I find the idea of a "training ground" of unbetaed canyons intriguing, that would help the entire community up their game (get some skills). My problem with "show don't tell" is that is really not what you are doing. Instead of a printed paint by numbers route guide you are just dragging your breathing beta supply along with you.

the difference is, the people who are being shown don't know what's there yet. they only know as much has been shared with them, if anything at all. with beta, the features are all published and reviewable, so it's totally paint by numbers. you know every move before you set foot in the canyon.

however, if someone shows you, often the canyon is "revealed" as you go. they will probably know the rope length, and wetsuit requirements, but if you are ghosting, they probably don't know anything else. you don't tell people the solutions to the puzzle before you get there. solving them is half the fun.

really, the two approaches are hardly comparable. and, usually you've done a few canyons with the other person, so they (or you, if you are doing the showing) know when the skills are there for a more advanced canyon, especially an unpublished one that might throw a curve ball or two.

[Iceaxe]

You must have missed this.... "having your breathing beta (or dad) along is not even close to the same thing as an exploration. Let's see if I can figure out the problem is an entirely different animal from I have to figure out the problem."


One version has a pucker factor of 10, one has a pucker factor of 2. And pucker factor is really the big difference in exploring the unknown.

[RAM]

You must have missed this.... "having your breathing beta (or dad) along is not even close to the same thing as an exploration. Let's see if I can figure out the problem is an entirely different animal from I have to figure out the problem."


One version has a pucker factor of 10, one has a pucker factor of 2. And pucker factor is really the big difference in exploring the unknown.

Want the pucker factor back in a canyon you know? Watch....or don't watch your daughter doing her first silo. It doesn't get much better with the 2nd and 3rd silo either. Sometimes knowing what is ahead can be just as bad, perhaps worse. What are ya gonna do? She wants the places and you think she has trained up erough and paid the dues. Proof is in the doing. I won't go on Facebook because I don't want to know what my son Aaron is doing these days. There are canyons I take folks where I am plenty scared knowing what is coming.
Ram

[Iceaxe]

Want the pucker factor back in a canyon you know? Watch....or don't watch your daughter doing her first silo. It doesn't get much better with the 2nd and 3rd silo either. Sometimes knowing what is ahead can be just as bad, perhaps worse. What are ya gonna do? She wants the places and you think she has trained up erough and paid the dues.

Don't I know it!

This kid stuff scares the snot outta me...

But you don't get tamed ducks from wild duck eggs.

[Slot Machine]

the difference is, the people who are being shown don't know what's there yet. they only know as much has been shared with them, if anything at all. with beta, the features are all published and reviewable, so it's totally paint by numbers. you know every move before you set foot in the canyon.

Agreed. How to use an unpublished canyon is up to the user, obviously. Training
ground, show don't tell, exploration experience, all seem like good uses of
these canyons. But what is the best way to keep the details of these canyons
unpublished, now that many people know about them? Do the beta publishers
acknowledge their existence and ask people to keep details quiet? Shane?

Bob

[jman]

Agreed. How to use an unpublished canyon is up to the user, obviously. Training ground, show don't tell, exploration experience, all seem like good uses of these canyons. But what is the best way to keep the details of these canyons unpublished, now that many people know about them? Do the beta publisher’s acknowledge their existence and ask people to keep deatails quiet? Shane?

Bob

Hmm..I dunno if that's the solution either.

IE - there plenty of canyons detailed in books that aren't published online (Kelsey) and yet when I visit these canyons there is not a soul around, yet Kelsey gives the beta freely and comprehensively. So the beta is there - so perhaps the difficulty of these canyons is what scare most people away (thus in great condition for my group and I)?

Even in Martins book for AZ, plenty of beta published, very very very rarely seen anyone else.

On second thought, these canyons may not be a 5/5 for every one but they are in prime condition; no bolts, tiny rope grooves (if any), and lots of fun!

I'm half for publishing and half for not-publishing.

[ratagonia]

Agreed. How to use an unpublished canyon is up to the user, obviously. Training ground, show don't tell, exploration experience, all seem like good uses of these canyons. But what is the best way to keep the details of these canyons unpublished, now that many people know about them? Do the beta publisher’s acknowledge their existence and ask people to keep details quiet? Shane?

Bob

I am a little confused, Bob, because I don't see much of a difference between what you are proposing and what we have already. Perhaps you could clarify what is different and new...

The 'system' we have now is:

1. Each beta publisher makes their own choices about what to publish and what not. And they publish or not.

2. People interested in doing canyons without beta go out and do them. And they publish or not.

3. People who want beta on canyons that are not published ask on the interwebs, and may or may not get provided information at the level of detail they wish.

4. People who want beta on canyons that are not published ask on the interwebs, get contacted privately, and either accept or don't accept a conditional offer.

What are you proposing that is different than this system?

Tom

[hank moon]

Hey, big kudos to Slot Machine, Steph, and others for being open to alternative approaches to the "us vs. us" problem. It's great to see some convergent movement in this thread - keep it up!

[Slot Machine]

I am a little confused, Bob, because I don't see much of a difference between what you are proposing and what we have already. Perhaps you could clarify what is different and new...

The 'system' we have now is:

1. Each beta publisher makes their own choices about what to publish and what not. And they publish or not.

2. People interested in doing canyons without beta go out and do them. And they publish or not.

3. People who want beta on canyons that are not published ask on the interwebs, and may or may not get provided information at the level of detail they wish.

4. People who want beta on canyons that are not published ask on the interwebs, get contacted privately, and either accept or don't accept a conditional offer.

What are you proposing that is different than this system?

Tom

Tom,

I might have been unclear before, I am only talking about The Dante's.

I'm proposing treating The Dante's in a new different way. Let's say all the
beta publishers post on their respective websites that The Dante's are an
exploration preserve along with a set of standards for how the preserve is to be
treated. (see my post at the top of this page)

It seems if another Slot Machine comes along and publishes beta on Dante's you
would be pretty disappointed. It seems you have shared something special with a
bunch of people and would like to continue that tradition of treating friends to
a mysterious canyon. Why not make an attempt at keeping this place clean and
mysterious?

Maybe an ethic against posting Dante's beta on the interwebs? An ethic that
every canyoneer knows about?

The Dante's beta will get published very soon if no expectation is set. But if
you don't care, then it's a waste of my time to care.

Bob

[DOSS]

Maybe an ethic against posting Dante's beta on the interwebs? An ethic that every canyoneer knows about?

The Dante's beta will get published very soon if no expectation is set. But if you don't care, then it's a waste of my time to care.

Bob

That has to be the best way to avoid all of this crap that seems to come up every time someone talks about someone else "secret canyon"... they are not secret so lets just acknowledge that they exist and try to turn them into preserves. Then the next time someone comes on and posts like Bob did it won't be 5 pages of Instead Tom can pipe in with "That canyon is one of what we call a preserve, a no beta on the internet, go do it, go loaded for bear, Don't bolt the damn thing" and enjoy :)

[RAM]

Tom,

I might have been unclear before, I am only talking about The Dante's.

I'm proposing treating The Dante's in a new different way. Let's say all the beta publishers post on their respective websites that The Dante's are an exploration preserve along with a set of standards for how the preserve is to be treated. (see my post at the top of this page)

It seems if another Slot Machine comes along and publishes beta on Dante's you would be pretty disappointed. It seems you have shared something special with a bunch of people and would like to continue that tradition of treating friends to a mysterious canyon. Why not make an attempt at keeping this place clean and mysterious?

Maybe an ethic against posting Dante's beta on the interwebs? An ethic that every canyoneer knows about?

The Dante's beta will get published very soon if no expectation is set. But if you don't care, then it's a waste of my time to care.

Bob

It sounds like a fun experiment. So where from here? First off, the "Author" would need to remain blissfully ignorant. I don't believe he would ever agree to the idea of an exploration preserve. What works in our favor is that the book he would publish these canyons in came out pretty recently, he doesn't plan a general guide anytime soon and he dismissed these canyons as being too short when a member of the community asked him about it years ago.

I don't think it is up to Tom. He has been out there for years without publishing. I think it may come down to what Shane wants to do with these canyons. No effort to create the idea of a preserve is possible, without him leading the effort.
Ram

[ratagonia]

blank

[outsider]

It has been fascinating to read through this thread, and see where it has gone. The preserve concept is interesting and I hope there can be success with it. In fact, I hope the concept (or something similar) can be applied to other locations on the Colorado Plateau. Now, I like beta as much as anyone else; my bookshelf attests to this. I've spent way too much time dinking around the interwebs groping for data. But there is now a lot of info out there. Anyone finish off every canyon in Kelsey's 2nd edition? Heck, not even Mr. Kelsey has done every canyon in his book. I could spend the rest of my canyon days just sticking to beta'd routes.

But as a number of people - MSchasch, Penmartens, Iceaxe, to name a few - have mentioned, exploring is something special. Am I much of an explorer myself - nahhh, not really, but the concept appeals. Seems like “undocumented terrain/canyons” are a finite and dwindling resource, maybe something that should be preserved or saved at some point? I know not everyone feels this way, or has an interest in exploration. But maybe some compromise is in order? Naive and unlikely, perhaps, but just a thought.

So to folks interested in this "Dante" area, or other off-the-radar areas, I say: Go explore! Be safe, be clean, have fun, AND leave the experience you have available for others.

-john