Super Amazing Slots?

[spinesnaper]

Jenny

I think it is easy to get a little hot under the collar when posting on such a forum. Personally I think that it is instructive to understand what the hot button issues are. But then I am not usually the subject of pointed attacks. For our community leaders, they of necessity will take stances that will draw some heat. That does not necessarily mean that contrary posters are bad people ( insensitive is in the eye of the beholder). Anonymity does probably contribute to this. The community generally is able to reel in this type of behavior. I for one found the whole recent ACA thread a very painful read yet that was obviously a very important venue for venting.

Ken

[The Good Cop]

They may be the cheeriest group of people this side of the Mississippi- but if they are withholding information because they are taking the "this is my private slot" kind of mentality, then friendliness has nothing to do with it. They're still being elitists. Any time you deny information to people that ask, just because they didn't "go through proper channels" or "earn it", you are being an elitist.

And yes, that means Tom, Shane, and everybody else who has a website with beta are elitists in ways, because they do withhold information on certain canyons. BUT. They have also more than made up for it by offering beta on many other canyons. When you are a dick about ALL your beta, and don't offer anything to anyone, thats when you stay an elitist d-bag.

Is it right? Yes, and no. Sure, we all want to protect out special areas. We all want to feel that feeling of seclusion, and isolation when we go out, and telling others makes us feel like we are losing that. That's what the ultimate goal is, isn't it? Nobody really wants to go out into a LWH style circus environment.

But let's talk about the safety of it for a moment: what if someone was to ask about a canyon, and get nothing but a few whispers of beta about it? Let's say that person then says "screw it, I'm interested", but because he/she has NO clue what's in the canyon, and maybe brings not enough/the wrong gear and ends up trapped, hurt, or worse, killed, because certain people were being stingy with beta. How would you feel if someone died in your "hidden" canyon, all because you were being a jackass about releasing info? Yes, most of the blame lies on the person who went in, but if someone died, because you simply didn't want to drop even a little bit of beta, and you are perfectly fine with it, then you are one cold motherf&#%er.

Not releasing beta is not going to keep people out. People are always going to explore, and isn't it safer to everyone, and better to the "image" of the canyoneering population as a group, to prevent more injuries/accidents/deaths? To keep more people out of the news for rescues/deaths?

I understand completely the mentality here- it's the same with boating and new creeks, and skiing and great sledding zones. We all want them, and we all want to hide them too. It's human nature. Hide what you have. But you have to decide at some point where the line is drawn between hiding canyons for your own selfish desires, and offering enough beta to prevent someone from hurting themselves.

You don't have to post a step by step guide to a canyon when someone asks. If it's sensitive or special to you, then just give enough for people to be safe. Just say, "you will need a xx Meter Rope, expect xx rappels. Some water. Enjoy". That's more than enough right there. It will still require the asking party to explore and use their heads and skills, but even just a little word of mouth can go a long way towards preventing catastrophes.

In the end, it doesn't matter how over protective you get over a canyon or canyon system. With the ever increasing popularity in canyoneering, and the increasing skill set of the average user, there is going to be nothing but a steady increase in the number of people doing it. This is not the Escalante of the 70's and 80's. This is not Zion 30 years ago. If you cant handle people being in "your canyons", then get a new hobby and forget about this one, because it's not going to change. If you can't handle seeing people in your "hidden zones", then get out. Because nothing will stop people from exploring, and it's not like you can cap the number of canyoneers out there.

Exploring is what you did when you first found those canyons, isn't it? Surely you were told at least a little whisper on where to go look. So why do you get to explore and find these places, and have a great experience, but others don't? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.....

As a budding canyoneer, I often times come across many questions about canyons I've seen in person, on GE, or on the map. Sometimes my questions are answered, and sometimes they aren't. It's part of playing the game. In the end, when people want to be d-bags, then so be it, and I will just go find another canyon to explore, because there are so many places in the wilds of the Colorado Plateau that you can always find what you need. I don't get mad when people deny me beta. I just file them under the category of "Jerk-offs I will never associate with", and then move on. I'm not going to berate you on being a d-bag, obviously you are fine with your actions and that's all there is.

A good example I have is not a canyon, but an area you may have heard of called "The Wave". I'm sure there's a small, crusty population out there that daily bemoans and begrudges Mike Kelsey and others from bringing their "special zone" to the public's attention. However, with all the beta out there, and the thousands of people that have been there, and the millions of pictures, we [my family and I] went out there one day, and you know what? We had the place to ourselves, and it was INCREDIBLE. My appreciation wasn't diminished because it was a "known" spot. My experience wasn't altered because I knew people had been there before. In fact, with the help of a map, and some basic directions, we were able to go right to it, and not have to spend precious daylight wandering around looking for it. We knew to look for other neat features nearby too. In the end, the large amount of beta actually helped me enjoy the day more.

Shane, Tom, etc- Thank you guys SO MUCH for everything you do to provide beta to the group. Nobody has asked you to do it, and every time I look at one of your websites, I'm stoked that you have offered what you have. I know there are canyons you don't list, and that is your choice, but like I said, you more than make up for it with your willingness to distribute beta on others. You choose your battles, and 98% of the time you are friendly and approachable, and that more than makes up for anything you withhold, at least to me.

Slot Machine- don't let a few jerks get you down. Keep up your explorations, and keep that positivity coming. It's people like yourself that redeem canyoneers as a whole, from the d-bags who want to keep everything on lockdown.

I know people will rag on me for jumping in and not being a "veteran canyoneer". But bottom line, I've been through this debate many times in my life. Just exchange "slot canyon" for "steep creek" or "pillow lines" or "waterfall" or "sled zone". It's all the same. And in the end, just MY opinions. Nobody elses. In the end, I will tell ANYbody ANYthing about ANYwhere I have been. Why? Well that's just it. Not "why". But, "Why not?" My pride and ego are not going to prevent me from potentially keeping people safe, or from showing somebody something incredible. But that's just me, and I only speak for one.

Support to Eric/Shaggy, Ken & my buddy Jenny Mae, well stated.

Yeti, I'm not sure if perhaps something was read into my comments which I did not mean to say, but it seems to me there's a key concern with how you make/describe your position. You do not allow for the possibility that someone choosing to do something different from that which you prefer, might possibly have any legitimate reason for doing so. Personally, I always try to remember that I'm increasing my understanding of people & the world every day, so when someone holds a viewpoint or takes an action different from what makes sense to me that it's possible they may have a legitimate reason, one that I just don't yet understand. That's my approach anyway. Tom had an excellent comment recently somewhere regarding the phrase "assume good faith". Yes, yes, not in the face of clearly demonstrated vandalism/bad faith, but under any normal circumstances. Eric/Shaggy perfectly described, in my understanding, the sort of approach which is used by folks who I know who engage in "show don't tell" canyoneering.

In addition, while first & foremost, anyone getting injured or killed anywhere, anyway is the top concern with all others being secondary, I believe the case you make regarding the possibility for people getting injured to have feeble (at best) legitimacy. Look at the scenario you yourself described: someone takes limited pieces of beta & goes into an unknown canyon equipped based on that limited beta, resulting in injury or death. Any way one tries, I can only understand that as wholly on the shoulders of the person making the choice (unless you want to ascribe intentional deception upon the limited beta source). In addition, anyone going into unknown canyons without doing the time & legwork to research them to a "safe" degree or at least reasonably safe degree (ha, I know, gray areas) is just begging for an epic, and I find it hard to imagine that you would also not find their actions sad, unfortunate, to-have-been-mitigated-in-any-way-possible, but ultimately their own fault for making some obviously unwise decisions in an unknown area. Seriously man: whoever the folks are who do have the beta went in without any beta at all; how did they avoid injury or death? I believe it was through a lot of time, attention, research, experience, prudence, etc, etc...how would they be described if they had gotten injured or killed? I love having people do my research for me too, but I don't feel it's reasonable to vilify them for saying something like, "well, if you don't want to come along with me on my terms, that's fair but you have to do your own research in that case."

Another funny note & one that speaks to common ground with you & I: you mention enthusiastic thanks to 2 people, Tom & Shane. One of them I have unfortunately not yet had the pleasure of meeting, though I have happily and thankfully used his website & been a circle of friends guy (Shane)...and the other, Tom, is one of those friends of mine for whom I am speaking up.

Cheers,

Wayne

[Scott Card]

I once was only slightly annoyed with the "withholding" of information. So I went to Freezefest. I wanted to meet these elusive canyoneers. I found I liked them. I found they had good reasons for not publishing beta which to me was reasonable. There, I learned of canyons I have never heard of and which I probably couldn't find again. Easiest and most pleasant way to learn the "secret" canyons is to do them with someone willing to take you. I find there IS a difference between publishing and sharing. I haven't had anyone yet not willing to share when I have asked. Yes, there may be some terms and conditions, but I guess I for one am not offended by that. And I for one will respect the requests of those willing to show me a great day by not publishing the beta.

[Iceaxe]

Easiest and most pleasant way to learn the "secret" canyons is to do them with someone willing to take you.

That is certainly an "easy" way to learn the "secret" canyons. But for the most part I hate to be "guided", which is a major part of "show don't tell canyoneering". That is not an enjoyable experience to me. Navigating, figuring out the problems, yada, yada, is what I enjoy.

As for fests... the biggest draw back to any of the fests, at least for me, is I'm not a big fan of the herd, siege, over power and rape approach to canyoneering that is often part of a fest. But that is just a personal preference. I do enjoy the people and camaraderie.

I think the "elitest" attitude is in many cases a myth,

From my observations.... The elitist attitude is not a myth but comes from the "STFU, and take your wanna be Goblin Lair noob ass home, this is an area for real canyoneers" type posts.

[Slot Machine]

From my observations.... The elitist attitude is not a myth but comes from the "STFU, and take your wanna be Goblin Lair noob ass home, this is an area for real canyoneers" type posts.

C'mon Mr Axe, this thread was going in a constructive and civil direction.

I thought Shaggy's post was thoughtful. I don't agree 100% with his statements,
but they are well thought out and I appreciate the input.

Back on topic please: It is becoming obvious that nobody wants to simply share
info on the Dante's. I am wildly curious as to what is there, and will likely
just burn the calories to find out.

...just send your fellow canyoneers emails asking to get invited on trips and
believe it or not, you'll probably get invited, have a great time, and meet
lots of new friends.

I also find it odd that people just ask to join another person's canyoneering
trip. You wouldn't invite yourself to somebody's house for dinner, would you?

Is anybody here planning a trip to the Dante's? Can I go? Can I go?

[goofball]

Jason/Goof, I apologize if I misunderstand some of what & who you are referring to, but I felt I needed to chime in. I'm not looking to jump into the middle of this debate, but your last post refers to people for whom I must speak up. I had the pleasure of meeting & doing some canyons with some of the folks I believe you are referring to. I can tall you that all that I did was email & ask if they'd be willing to have me join them. I explained that I had done the canyon before to allay any legitimate concerns regarding me being over my head (it was Imlay). I was cheerfully invited, cheerfully greeted, and asked on one of those so-called "secret-handshake" canyons the next day. What was asked of me by them? Be a part of the team & have fun. That was it. They were open & welcoming, I experienced the opposite of what you described there with terms like "elitist". In addition, they have continued to be good friends who I feel fortunate to have met.

Regardless of what experiences you have had I felt that relating my experience was necessary; just because folks don't talk to everyone about everything they know does not make them elitist. In addition, I'm pretty sure that they put in a fair amount of time & effort to safely doing these canyons about which they had no previous beta (great post Penny, thanks!), and that option is openly available to everyone willing to take the time & effort.

Cheers,

Wayne Burns, professional brewer & unprofessional hiker-with-ropes

just to clarify. my "elitist" remark here was aimed only at what had been stated in teh thread, and not some broad generalization (although i do believe it does have some truth as a broad generalization, i just did not intend it that way here). the comments toward slot machine about "burning bridges" and "broad banding what others have toiled adn sweated for", to me, are elitist remarks. because from the context it does not seem slot machine is personally known to those individuals, and the implication i took from those remarks was that since he is not known by them he has no place speaking about these particular holes in the ground in public. because if he did know them and shared their attitudes he of course would never think of doing such a thing. and that attitude turns some people off. i, and those i play outside with, are in it all for the enjoyment of the experience and do not care one bit who came before or who came after. share or don't share, whatever, but don't be so self aggrandizing to think that your attitude towards these holes in the ground are enlightened truths. its just your opinion.

and to share a little more of the experiences that shape my attitudes, i have enjoyed teh company of teh vast majority of those i have played outside with. but canyoneering in particular, the pool clashes in general with my personality. hopefully no one loses any sleep over not being endeared to all they meet. ram i have spoke too periodically over the years and enjoy his company, and i have enjoyed the company of others but for whatever reason just did not carry on correspondence. i am not a social butterfly and prefer a very small group of friends/acquaintances. mostly because people have always, in general, freaked me out and meds never helped. but others put me at unease. whether it is just the plain fact that personality's differ and we all have preferences for who we choose to spend our time with, or the buzz killing condescension when it seems like every move is being scrutinized. only one way to coil or bag a rope, only one way to rig a sling, only one knot that should be used, don't go first, don't use that rap device, don't down climb that way. its disturbing and anxiety ridden being around that shit. its also weird seeign the "credit hounds". a canyon can only be doen 1st once, and who gives a shit if they are first or last ? does it matter ? everythingn after is only impressive to those who don't know just how much you knew when you went. when i poked around capitol reef and saw the canyons there, i asked ram if he was aware of them since i saw bolts. he was not, and was intrigued. i was asked if it was ok for a group to go in w/out me, since i was teh sharer, not teh sharee. of course, i don't care. then when i saw some pictures of what i called happy dog and babboon laughs, one of the captions was "we found a good one". and i thought, really, you did ? that must have taken a lot of hard work and effort to go in and find those. good for you. and i only bring that up to illustrate how weird that attitude is to me, a hole in the ground as an ego booster. not many people are going to take the time and effort to do more isolated or more challenging canyons, making them public is not some death knell in my opinion. and i think people are not stupid, they are not going to go do no kidding or smiling cricket just because some impetuous fool took the plunge and made it thru, as much as anything, because they would rather make it thru than not make it thru and be dead. fear and anger are powerful motivators.

that kinda rambled i am sure. i should just stay out of stupid shit and enjoy the people and times i experience.

and since my history in the dave's not dead complex has been brought up, it had nothing to do w/ ram, although i did have a GREAT time w/ him and steve (i think, from colorado soemplace ?) and another fella who's name is on the tip of my tongue but i can't get out. we thought we were goign to need some butter to lube him up and get him out at one point. but some years ago i saw these canyons on a topo map and asked a question on the yahoo board. i got a response from someone w/ max rap and general conditions, and that was all i needed/wanted. i think it was one of dave blacks friends from slc that i had met a time or 2 before thru dave.

[SarahT]

When people break agreements with me, I am usually both disappointed, and a little outraged. Nice of her to take the TR down, when called to the mat for breaking the agreement.
Tom

Sorry but this irks me. Called to the mat for breaking the agreement? Damn, I'm not the enemy here. When I did these canyons I was indeed told about the rule not to reveal them on the internet... and when I asked for clarification I was told it was OK to post innocent pictures just as long as they didn't point to the location. Being a newbie to the area/sport I had no idea that some of the above ground pictures crossed the line and might be too revealing. It was NEVER my intention to break the damn agreement and I did feel very bad when I was notified by the community that they were upset. The blurb I replaced those pages with is a bit angry and harsh I do admit. At the time I was upset not at all by having to remove the stuff, but by how the notification was delivered to me. I posted those pictures because it was my 1st real canyoneering experience and it was one of the most amazing trips of my life at the time, not because I wanted to sell the canyons out. Sorry. I'm not THAT kind of person and it really bothers me for people to think otherwise.

[spinesnaper]

[ratagonia]

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[Michael_WB]

If a person enquires about a particular canyon, which another considers s/he has no desire to disclose any information, (wanting to keep it for themselves, to preserve its pristine character, to comply with secret agreements, etc.), then why doesn't that second party not just STFU about it? The whole point of a secret is that it remains, er... a secret!

There could be no accusations of elitism if there were no response at all. Such accusations arise from such (occasionally rather smug) answers along the lines of "I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you first", "It's invitation only", "it's so wild and dangerous that it requires skills and experience that I don't believe anyone apart from me and my special friends possess," etc.

Such responses are all a tad provocative (if not a little childish,) so why bother at all? If the motivation really is to keep these places pristine/natural and discourage others from attempting to find them, any of the reactions above would most probably do the opposite. As appears to be the case here ("I am wildly curious as to what is there, and will likely just burn the calories to find out.")

I get the feeling that Scott P's comment about the sharing (or not) of beta being a matter of ego was the most pertinent yet made in this discussion.


Michael WB

[ratagonia]

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[Michael_WB]

Tom,

You dub yourself twice above (sarcastically) as an elitist. I would point out that no direction accusation was made by me in that regard. I merely stated that such comments would not even arise (that meaning towards anyone from anyone, justified or otherwise), if no public mention were made of secret agreements, and that the results could indeed be counter-productive, as might prove to be the case here.

Appropriate? Well, personally I have no problem with anyone deciding not to share (for free) information they consider gained by pioneering toil and sweat. I appreciate it when they do, whether it be for altruistic, enthusiastic, internet egotism, publicity-seeking, etc, reasons. But if they don't, then it's their decision; I certainly don't believe that not sharing beta is a sin, even a venial one

Conversely my bookshelves are groaning with maps/guidebooks[1] gladly purchased from commercial providers of such information... using income gained by my own toil and sweat. Which is of course only fair as well.


Michael.
[1] Including yours

[Slot Machine]

If I ever said "we", the we included you.

Oh wow . I'm learning so much about wordsmithmanship.

Maybe Slot Machine should go there?

Oh here?



Maybe I'm busy with a project right now.

Maybe answering my own questions about a map is a little irritating. Maybe
strangers respond better to introductions than abrupt commands (see your pm).
Maybe I'm trying really hard to respect you.

Maybe playing nice is not how you roll. Maybe that approach is not paying you
any dividends in this thread.

Maybe I have a bunch to learn from you. Maybe.

[juaquin.phoenix]

If a person enquires about a particular canyon, which another considers s/he has no desire to disclose any information, (wanting to keep it for themselves, to preserve its pristine character, to comply with secret agreements, etc.), then why doesn't that second party not just STFU about it? The whole point of a secret is that it remains, er... a secret!

There could be no accusations of elitism if there were no response at all. Such accusations arise from such (occasionally rather smug) answers along the lines of "I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you first", "It's invitation only", "it's so wild and dangerous that it requires skills and experience that I don't believe anyone apart from me and my special friends possess," etc.

Such responses are all a tad provocative (if not a little childish,) so why bother at all? If the motivation really is to keep these places pristine/natural and discourage others from attempting to find them, any of the reactions above would most probably do the opposite. As appears to be the case here ("I am wildly curious as to what is there, and will likely just burn the calories to find out.")

I get the feeling that Scott P's comment about the sharing (or not) of beta being a matter of ego was the most pertinent yet made in this discussion.

Michael WB

I think it's a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't thing. I agree to a point that not responding works (especially when someone is just trolling for information without any facts), but not always. Ego? Actually I don't prescribe to any elitist excuses about releasing or not releasing beta. I think much of the internet 'me first' generation posts everything because of ego - they want to look greater than they really are; you know, put up a website and they are suddenly something special or some type of expert. On the other hand, I think that the wilderness advocate farce of 'put it on a map, show people, and they will suddenly gain a conscience and protect it' has done tremendous damage. In Canyoneering, the short history shows me that if traffic increases in an area, some type of control will be instituted. So, why do I think canyons shouldn't be broad banded? Agree with me or not, I would say that it's my own personal sense of the greater good, not ego.

[ratagonia]

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[SRG]

So I clicked on this link hoping to find out something interesting about Super Amazing Slots and four pages later two hours of my life are gone... damn.

[Dan-wild]

This was enough entertainment for the rest of my life. I think I'll just quit canyoneering while I'm ahead and just start reading more of these immensely enthralling threads...

I would like to thanks Tom for 'Tom's Canyoneering Guide.' Just the fact that the information exists somewhere as accessible as this gives you more than enough room to withhold any beta you damn well feel like, and way to explore Slot Machine! That's what it's all about right? I saw those pages on the 13ergirl website and I was very curious as well, but I didn't search any further. Thanks for answering some questions.

[jman]

What people don't like the most is (again) posting a TR/pics and going "nah nah nah nah nah nah, I have a cool place that no one else knows about" mentality.

It's like me saying that there are 2 other short, but very good canyons in the same area as Pleaides......whoops, did I let that cat out of the bag.....