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Thread: American Canyoneers needs your input!

  1. #61
    Zion Siren Felicia's Avatar
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    Really?

    How the hell can this group get started with all this bashing? Is there no room for growing pains?

    Is this how you facilitate and grow your other interests?

    What happen to giving the Association a chance?

    Clearly The Feburary Blahs have begun!

    Wolf, I hope you do not get discouraged. Shane - got a bored attorney on staff? Kurt - don't want to pay, then take time off from play. Tom - nice attempt with February on the next calendar page.

    Give the IBOD a chance to get off the ground.
    Some people "go" through life and other people "grow" through life. -Robert Holden

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  3. #62
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post

    Thanks for your concern of my health(smashed finger or drunk) neither would be the case, I can't recall the last time I've been drunk, but I do enjoy a drink when I get home from work at night.

    ...

    And as an aside--it's very difficult to smash a hammer with one's thumb, just sayin' oh wise one......
    If'n you hit the Old No. 7, THEN figure you really oughtta finish those bins for the firewood because it might snow tonight...

    Not exactly how it happened, but close enough. As was said: "looks like you hit the wrong nail".

    T
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  4. #63
    Support. Seems like a we are focusing on personality differences which can only further pollute the issue. We are not passive actors. Instead, we seem to be actively engaging in actions that will further divide our larger community into antagonistic factions. While we have seen this happen time and again in the past this seems to be happening in an unusually premature fashion. And in this case it seems all "sides" seem to be instigating the tense situation instead of working towards effective mitigation.

    I really don't think anyone wants that as an outcome......

    Phillip

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Felicia View Post
    Really?

    How the hell can this group get started with all this bashing? Is there no room for growing pains?


    What happen to giving the Association a chance?


    Give the IBOD a chance to get off the ground.
    Thanks for that.

    Its difficult (and probably intimidating for some) to want to interact/give your 2 cents when the same 4-5 people that reply to every little thing, are busy clogging a thread with arguments and nay-saying.

    Maybe its time to back off and let others get a word in. Maybe then some positivity can be found.

  6. #65
    Trail Master RAM's Avatar
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    Thanks Felicia

    What the hell is going on here? Take a look at the AC site. Really, read the threads. Good people are trying to do good things. Its damn well is diverse group. People on the IBOD ,and elsewhere I have never heard of. Shane has posted great stuff toward access. Wolf has been a warrior toward moving the thing along. Look and you will see other heroes. No one is set on any power play. The thing drips of altruism outside of what is happening here. Kurt, its nothing like what was. There is no center to the thing. Good advice from Phil and Dan. Put the personalities on hold. Give the benefit of the doubt. I don 't give a damn (sorry LDS folks, for effect) about the personalities. A cheap way to posture ourselves out of opportunity to create something good. If something good comes, it comes from multiple sources. If it isn't needed, that will show. Come on! OK, what else? Concerns come from here, wondering what is being decided on the AC by an IBOD. NOTHING is being decided by the IBOD. People are throwing out their best efforts (seeds) with NOTHING in concrete. Elections are coming. Some strong critics better damn well be running, or....or ...or .never mind. The timing of what an IBOD should do? A fine question. Don't assume they have sinister motives. They should also put on their thick skins for what some may say. Those that criticize, should consider joining and effecting change. Its all open over there. Their best efforts.Make them yours? Nice reasonable questions. Good reasonable reply from Tom a few days back, outlining what is being structured, for future approval. Good information there. Suggestions on fee amounts here? Great. It has lowered the suggested price, by those who are facing the the pressure of paying for incorporation fee and other expenses. And as long as we are here? Is there a person with law resources or no money concerns that wants to be a sugar daddy? It ain't that much money. Cricket...you came so highly recommended. I was told to get out with you. Your an excellent skeptic and critic. What else can you do? Shane, Wolf, Kurt...let it go and refocus on the possible. NOTHING is decided. NOTHING is determined. The game is wide open. Its ours to create and I see talent everywhere.
    Respectfully
    Ram (who has not done enough himself)

  7. #66
    First of all, I brew beer for a living, so for all those to whom it is a part of their lives & beliefs, can we relax over a couple? For those to whom it's not, I enjoy entirely sober conversation too

    Support to Ram, Mike, Felicia, Dan, Phil (and any others I forgot and/or failed to mention) for what I perceive as attempting to engage in constructive discussion. Respect for the troubled history of personality conflicts in the Canyoneering community and what I perceive as the justified sensitivity to potential concerns which can arise (learning from history is a good & healthy thing). Hope that folks who have made significant efforts themselves and who have been perceived (accurately or not) as being unnecessarily critical can engage in manners which benefit all and lead to better outcomes. Encouragement to Tom for his enthusiastic support of what he sees as positive efforts, but concern over the (maybe, maybe not) justified or maybe/maybe not functional aggressive tone of his post.

    I have the great good fortune to know some folks who are engaged in these efforts. Whether people's individual engagements have been by active participation on the iBOD or in active discussion in a number of places or active involvement with the many interested parties in the canyoneering world; my great hope is to get to share canyons with all of you. I do hope that despite the many concerns we can find a comfort level with working together on topics that I believe would make all our canyoneering lives richer.

    I've been lazy recently keeping up on what's occurring over on AC's site; if Dan's characterization is accurate, count me in for chipping in some support right now to deal with the legal financial hurdle...I'll head over to AC later today and see what I learn. Entirely outside of my personal impression of the people working for AC (something which is just my own personal bias) I view chipping in $50 or $100 for the sake of AC being able to get off the ground as a low cost/possible high reward situation. In my case I spend significantly more than that just in gas money for each canyoneering trip I make, so the possibility of helping along an transparent and democratic member-driven group seems good to me, fwiw.

    Kurt, I don't know enough to feel like I can have a well-considered opinion on the decommissioning of the Glen Canyon Dam, but I would certainly have to be convinced that there is important value to it, particularly if, as I understand it, it is already 50 years into a maximum lifespan of ~ 150 years, and it will become more burdensome & less efficient with every year that goes by. Nevertheless, while that's a very worthwhile topic for discussion, to my limited ability to understand, it appears like your question is a setup for Wolf to say something inflammatory, rather than something constructive...am I wrong?

    Cheers to all & best wishes for common & constructive ground,

    Wayne

  8. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    I view wolf as one who comes to bogley telling us what he and his chronies are doing at the AC site, seems quite a bit like another site we used to frequent.
    I resemble that remark! Kurt..a lot of time and effort has been invested so far to insure that exactly "That" doesn't happen. I would have thought your "inflamation" would have subsided? Mine has. Time to move on. Get involved again. Smile...it really confuses approaching frowns.

  9. #68
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Heres an access/land use example, wolf.

    Do you and your group support draining of Lake Powell and returning natural flows through the Grand Canyon, or
    do you support working with the Lake Powell NRA/Navajo Nation, in providing uncomplicated canyoneer access throughout the Lake?
    Can there be both?
    Where do you stand?

    It's no secret that Glen Canyon contains possibly the highest concentration of canyonerring potential, maybe in the world.
    I can answer that for you, Kurt, since it is a question of philosophy.

    AC is envisioned as a practical organization. Thus, it is likely that the AC, when formulating policy, will avoid tilting at windmills (like draining Lake Powell); instead working closely with land managers to secure access for canyoneers. We anticipate working with Glen Canyon NRA and the Navajo Nation Chapters.

    The next board of directors may decide to head off in a different direction, but that is the general thrust of the vision for access at the moment.

    Tom
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  10. #69
    Bottom Tier Superhero Iceaxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    You're way out of line. So are you, Shane.
    Way out of line? I don't think so.... I have only answered questions and accusation that Wolf has carelessly tossed around. I took great care to frame my answers inside the borders that Wolf established and tried not to step outside of them. Tom, your time would probably be better spent coaching Wolf up on not posting false accusations, not creating fictitious enemies and not chopping his supporters off at the knees.

    I'm still trying to figure out why Wolf thinks I'm the enemy with regards to AC? I have supplied AC with funds, material and knowledge in the hope that it would be successful. Anyhoo.... that's a question I would really like to have Wolf answer. He is welcome to PM me if he feels more comfortable with that.

  11. #70
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Way out of line? I don't think so.... I have only answered questions and accusation that Wolf has carelessly tossed around. I took great care to frame my answers inside the borders that Wolf established and tried not to step outside of them. Tom, your time would probably be better spent coaching Wolf up on not posting false accusations, not creating fictitious enemies and not chopping his supporters off at the knees.

    I'm still trying to figure out why Wolf thinks I'm the enemy with regards to AC? I have supplied AC with funds, material and knowledge in the hope that it would be successful. Anyhoo.... that's a question I would really like to have Wolf answer. He is welcome to PM me if he feels more comfortable with that.
    Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not sure having ME coach someone on civility would be particularly effective; thus that job has been given to Ram. My job here is to try to smooth things out, and attempt to redirect venom on myself, since I'm used to it.

    I think Wolf equates you with Bogley. Perhaps conflates is the more accurate word.

    Tom
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  12. #71
    Bottom Tier Superhero Iceaxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    I'm not sure having ME coach someone on civility would be particularly effective; thus that job has been given to Ram.
    Good Choice


    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    I think Wolf equates you with Bogley. Perhaps conflates is the more accurate word.
    Then perhaps your job should be to coach him up on the history of canyoneering politics.

    As you well know…. Bogley is populated by a sizable population of canyoneers that were run-off, moderated off or out right banned from the other canyon forums and organizations for various reasons. That makes Bogley a tough nut to crack as many here have been burned once by a similar organization and now they want to know what they are fighting for before marching blindly into battle a second time. That is an important dynamic to understand.

  13. #72
    Bottom Tier Superhero Iceaxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    I think Wolf equates you with Bogley. Perhaps conflates is the more accurate word.
    And my next question.... why does Wolf (and several others in American Canyoneers) see Bogley as the enemy?

    Outside of a small hiccup at the beginning I believe Bogley as an organization has also been very supportive of American Canyoneers, including making a sizable monetary donation and allowing access to its sizable membership base.

  14. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    And my next question.... why does Wolf (and several others in American Canyoneers) see Bogley as the enemy?

    Outside of a small hiccup at the beginning I believe Bogley as an organization has also been very supportive of American Canyoneers, including making a sizable monetary donation and allowing access to its sizable membership base.
    Shane, you are completely right. Bogley is not the enemy. But to suggest American Canyoneers sees Bogley (or you) as the enemy is ridiculous. Let's recap who is actually on the iBOD.

    Malia McIlvenna
    Rich Rudow
    Bo Beck
    Wolfgang Schuster
    Sonny Lawrence

    At the moment, that is the entirety of American Canyoneers. There are no members yet, only an iBOD and a bunch of people hoping this thing plays out. Characterizing "several" of the AC folks as having an issue with Bogley is totally unfair. Wolf, for whatever reason, seems to be airing a personal irritation with you. Who knows why, I certainly don't. But guess what, it doesn't friggin' matter. The only way this thing works is if we get a representative organization of as many canyoneers as possible. Whether they play on bogley, or yahoo, or facebook, or meetup, or canyoneering.net, or whatever doesn't matter! We get it. Everyone has beef with everyone else. Seriously, WE GET IT. No seriously, we absolutely, without any question, completely and entirely GET IT.

    Enough already!

    The iBOD has one task right now. Get the legal filings done so that this becomes a legit entity, and can start getting members. And then there can be a proper election, BY THE MEMBERS, to determine it's course in the future.

    What exactly is keeping this from happening? I ask again... Is it about the money? If so, I'll put in $200 so we can get a lawyer hired and finish this. There are plenty more people willing to help. THAT is where the effort should be focused. Not on this petty bullshit, it's exhausting and worthless.

  15. #74
    Z-Crew Deathcricket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs View Post
    I agree with Phillip. This is a disappointing exchange to see air publicly, and so quickly too. Wolf, don't undo all your hard work by getting involved in this. There are legitimate concerns being brought up, but they are clouding the real issue here.

    Here's the deal. It seems like AC is in a catch 22. In order to file for nonprofit they need more money to pay a lawyer to get this done right. We don't seem to have a clear understanding of how much. Maybe $1500? Maybe $4k? In order to get money, it seems they need to offer memberships. People are reluctant to pay for memberships without knowing what they are paying for, or having an actual clear understanding of what the organization will do. It's a very fair reservation to have. No need to be offended by it.

    To keep it simple, I think AC should just say - we don't have the money to pay a lawyer to file the paperwork. We need $1500 more (or however much.) However, by discussing merchandising plans and membership tiers and accident reports and what not, the iBOD is only confusing the issue. AC needs money in order to become a legal entity. There is not enough money yet. Without the money, progress is halted.

    How do they raise that money? By having paid memberships? Seems unlikely people are going to sign up, and in enough numbers to raise the necessary money by that method alone, especially so early in its infancy. The only other option, as I see it, is to ASK for those of us who will be potential members to put up the money up front, so that the organization becomes formal.

    Is that what needs to happen? If so, just tell us that's what's up. I'll put up $200 more dollars if it will help. I bet there is at least 10 more people who will do the same. Probably 20. Problem solved.

    Let's get this organization a lawyer and make it happen.
    See this is genius and well written, also impossible to argue with and fair. If you aren't, I would certainly encourage you to run for BOD. They need more people like you in there. I would also match your $200 and mail you a check right now. I just need to be certain it's going for a good cause and not a bunch of bureaucratic BS, accident report loggings, secret member only elite parties/clubhouse, and other ridiculous projects. If you are on the "inside" and can tell me this won't happen like my gut seems to be telling me, PM me your address and I'll mail you money right now. Serious...... Lawyer fees are no joke and I agree with expenses like this.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  16. #75
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    See this is genius and well written, also impossible to argue with and fair. If you aren't, I would certainly encourage you to run for BOD. They need more people like you in there. I would also match your $200 and mail you a check right now. I just need to be certain it's going for a good cause and not a bunch of bureaucratic BS, accident report loggings, secret member only elite parties/clubhouse, and other ridiculous projects. If you are on the "inside" and can tell me this won't happen like my gut seems to be telling me, PM me your address and I'll mail you money right now. Serious...... Lawyer fees are no joke and I agree with expenses like this.
    Very generous of you DC. While your deal is with Danno, I personally guarantee your satisfaction per the parameters stated. Decision date on that August 1, 2012. On that date, tell me you are not satisfied, and I will send you back $200.00.

    I am also sending in 200 today.

    Tom
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  17. #76
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felicia View Post
    Really?

    How the hell can this group get started with all this bashing? Is there no room for growing pains?

    Is this how you facilitate and grow your other interests?

    What happen to giving the Association a chance?

    Clearly The Feburary Blahs have begun!

    Wolf, I hope you do not get discouraged. Shane - got a bored attorney on staff? Kurt - don't want to pay, then take time off from play. Tom - nice attempt with February on the next calendar page.

    Give the IBOD a chance to get off the ground.
    Quote Originally Posted by restrac2000 View Post
    Support. Seems like a we are focusing on personality differences which can only further pollute the issue. . . And in this case it seems all "sides" seem to be instigating the tense situation instead of working towards effective mitigation.

    I really don't think anyone wants that as an outcome......

    Phillip
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Thanks Felicia
    ...let it go and refocus on the possible. NOTHING is decided. NOTHING is determined. The game is wide open. Its ours to create and I see talent everywhere.
    Respectfully
    Ram (who has not done enough himself)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Good Cop View Post
    First of all, I brew beer for a living, so for all those to whom it is a part of their lives & beliefs, can we relax over a couple? For those to whom it's not, I enjoy entirely sober conversation too

    Support to Ram, Mike, Felicia, Dan, Phil (and any others I forgot and/or failed to mention) for what I perceive as attempting to engage in constructive discussion.

    Wayne
    adding my support to these posters & others. this thread has been clogged on lost sight of what it should be about. would be great to have a thread for feedback.

    AND

    Quote Originally Posted by MSchasch View Post
    Thanks for that.

    Its difficult (and probably intimidating for some) to want to interact/give your 2 cents when the same 4-5 people that reply to every little thing, are busy clogging a thread with arguments and nay-saying.
    ^^^ I didn't want to provide any feedback when this thread started to run away.
    IBOD I think people would support membership when they know what it's going towards. Is the speculation right for lawyer fees. thanks for you future reply.
    I also have other ideas on membership & raising funds that I'll share at a later date.

  18. #77
    AC Incorporation? Private Attorney (that costs)? There are often tax consequences and organizational nuances that guide drafters of corporate by laws and articles of incorporation. Volunteer groups though who are not buying and selling and involving themselves in the general public marketplace can often (most often) get by with incorporation papers found on the State of Utah Corporations web site. They can be completed and then filed for a minimal fee and they most often DO NOT require an attorney being involved. Getting 501C3 status is another step/activity, and that really doesn't require an attorney either. Forms pulled off the net, signed and then filed. (articles of incorporation and bylaws can be borrowed - and copied - from another group, and suited for the interests of AC.) Other options exist. Private attorneys that wish to help, can/could prepare the necessary papers and make the filings and NOT CHARGE the organization, other than for costs of filing for example. The group could have put an attorney on the board, and there was suggestion earlier (by some) that attorneys (singular or plural?) were already on board to assist?. (maybe this meant they were on board as long as they were paid?)

    By making these comments I DO NOT wish to get in a fight with, or be pilloried by others. I've been involved with many volunteer outdoor/enviro groups over the years. Most often, attorneys, friendly to or involved with the groups, volunteered services. I'm certain private (volunteer) attorneys, that are active canyoneers are out there, if AC feels they need to have one. And all that money that's going to get sent in, or that is sitting in the coffers; internet/web expenses and junkets of course for the board (hah). Reasonable future financial needs will arrive, I assume.

  19. #78
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reflection View Post
    ...

    By making these comments I DO NOT wish to get in a fight with, or be pilloried by others. I've been involved with many volunteer outdoor/enviro groups over the years. Most often, attorneys, friendly to or involved with the groups, volunteered services. I'm certain private (volunteer) attorneys, that are active canyoneers are out there, if AC feels they need to have one. And all that money that's going to get sent in, or that is sitting in the coffers; internet/web expenses and junkets of course for the board (hah). Reasonable future financial needs will arrive, I assume.
    Seems high to me too, but, I do know a couple years ago, the IRS made big changes to the 501c3 requirements, and it is now a lot harder to get and maintain that status.

    Tom
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  20. #79
    Bottom Tier Superhero Iceaxe's Avatar
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    I'll offer some food for thought.....

    If I were running American Canyoneer membership would be free, at least for the initial six month's. My goal would be to fill the church, get the congregation seated, and listening to the sermon.

    If funding the non-profit status is causing a problem skip that for the time being and run it as a business which can be setup for a couple hundred dollars, I know AC has collected enough coinage to do that already. Make the non-profit status a goal to come back to and address once the organization is up and running. Its not like the organization will be making enough money the first year that taxes will be a problem, that is if it even makes any money.

    The success or failure of AC in the end will be based on number of members and guidance of the BOD and not coins in the war chest or tax status.


  21. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post

    If funding the non-profit status is causing a problem skip that for the time being and run it as a business which can be setup for a couple hundred dollars, I know AC has collected enough coinage to do that already. Make the non-profit status a goal to come back to and address once the organization is up and running. Its not like the organization will be making enough money the first year that taxes will be a problem, that is if it even makes any money.

    The success or failure of AC in the end will be based on number of members and guidance of the BOD and not coins in the war chest or tax status.

    I was wondering about a similar approach as well. Seems that the non-profit status could be a worthy long term goal but not sure how/if it is really needed now.

    The only hiccups for that approach may be (from what I have inferred): paypal requirements; commercial donors; and describing payments as "membership". I don't have much direct knowledge of such factors.

    I disagree about the "free" method you describe.

    Phillip

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