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Thread: American Canyoneers needs your input!

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Thank you for stating, for the management, that links to AC are OK.

    My understanding is that Scott and Wolf have agreed that links in BOTH directions are acceptable, provided they are kept within reason.

    FWIW: the zapped link on Bogley was restored after discussion with other mods and Wolf. Part of the problem was reverse links to Bogley were not welcomed by some of those affiliated with American Canyoneers.

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  3. #42
    That link zap was months ago (and yep restored)...old news and there have been links posted to AC since then (before this thread) from Bogley.

    At the end of the day, canyon access (AC) topics/issues will be discussed all across the web (bogley, yahoo, facebook, etc, etc). Expecting the AC topics to only be discussed on the AC site is not realistic and foolish if you want to reach a much larger slice of the community.

    IMO, you must raise the issues to the community at large and let the dialog sprout organically all across the web. It will then come from multiple sources and mediums. Enabling the AC to get maximum traction and make the impact that they are seeking.

    My .02 cents.


  4. #43
    Mr. Accadacca, I agree, there's going to be discussion everywhere, including around the campfire. Americancanyoneers success is in all our interests. Opening areas that are closed now, knowing what the rules are so that areas remain open, influencing land owners and National Park Service benefits all.
    Mr. Death cricket, it's not "you people" that didn't provide the link, it was me. Next time I will include it.
    Shane, lets talk about links. Every post I've seen from you includes a link to your personal web site. You personally benefit by providing that link how many thousand times? I don't think bogley would be happy if I was self promoting. I guess that's the difference between having a financial interest in a site and not. And you talk about having links within reason.
    So, Mr. Iceaxe, what do you want to do. Are we just going to do battle and spar, or work together. I personally am going to pay $100 for my $25 membership, because I want to see this succeed and I have no financial interest in any of this. What are you going to do? When americancanyoneers is successful, you stand to gain more then most by having more areas for beta available and more interested enthusiasts.


    WOLF

  5. #44
    To Wolf S_ _ _ _ _ _ _
    From a Prospective Contributing Canyoneer (and organization)
    I/we have $ money/funds we wish to put in the AC pot. 501c3
    Is there an AC bank account set up yet?
    I have your reported address, but not your phone number; I'd like to speak with you, soon!
    You can be contacted at?

    ACA iboard members?
    Is it expected/planned, that some/all temporary board members will shift into formal board status?
    And will other board members potentially be added? And what is the projected size of the new board?
    Bylaws & Articles will (hopefully set this out.)
    *possibly some of these matters will be delayed until a formal board sits?

    AC, a new group, with a new fireworks show. Myself and others have offered to waive a few sparklers.

  6. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Mr. Death cricket, it's not "you people" that didn't provide the link, it was me. Next time I will include it.
    The original poster of this thread also didn't include a link to the topic he/she was referencing. So hence the terminology "you people" was used, as me seeing a trend or pattern of behavior, twice now in the same thread. But thanks for the "attempted" correction to my verbiage. I was unaware of the soap opera type "butthurtness" between Bogley and AC and was simply under the impression you wanted us to browse your entire site for a single thread.

    Regarding links, I think Iceaxe's site is very useful and greatly appreciate links to it. Truth be told I actually came to Bogley from his site (searching for info on Subway). Right now AC seems interesting but not really that useful. But if has the potential to become so in the future. Everyone appreciates links to useful information. So I would think the motto would be to allow links both ways until it becomes tiresome. I don't actually see AC really going anywhere, doesn't seem that focused, too expensive, and not a huge benefit to canyoneers. Seems to me like an "exclusive club" for the huge ego's and nothing else. But would love to be proven wrong and will follow the project with interest. But paying $35 to attend some cool party or do some super secret canyon doesn't really seem worth it right now. I haven't even been to half the cool canyons on Iceaxe's site. Paying a subscription to him is totally worth it though, IMO.

    Just my .02$ of course.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  7. #46
    reflection...PM sent

  8. #47
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reflection View Post
    To Wolf S_ _ _ _ _ _ _
    From a Prospective Contributing Canyoneer (and organization)
    I/we have $ money/funds we wish to put in the AC pot. 501c3
    Is there an AC bank account set up yet?
    I have your reported address, but not your phone number; I'd like to speak with you, soon!
    You can be contacted at?

    ACA iboard members?
    Is it expected/planned, that some/all temporary board members will shift into formal board status?
    And will other board members potentially be added? And what is the projected size of the new board?
    Bylaws & Articles will (hopefully set this out.)
    *possibly some of these matters will be delayed until a formal board sits?

    AC, a new group, with a new fireworks show. Myself and others have offered to waive a few sparklers.
    Much of this is covered over at the website: http://www.americancanyoneers.org/forum/index.php

    Tom

  9. #48
    Dear Mr. Deathcricket:
    "Butthurtness" my butt doesn't hurt, in fact I think it's kind of sexy being 53 yrs old. It's also not "my" ego that's the concern. So according to your logic it should be okay for Tom to post a link to his site on every message. He also provides excellent products to members. Maybe I could add a link to my favorite home builder or favorite porn site since you started talking about butts.
    Shane provides valuable information for canyoneers, I have no problem with that. Shane has added some valuable info on the AC site, ref Arches, which will be incorporated after access comes on line. But, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
    Look, it's easy sitting on the sideline quarterbacking, going I'll see if I'm "pleasantly surprised". Add no monetary fund even though you directly benefit. It's a whole other issue being in the trenches putting it together. It's your organization as much as mine. Come be part of the solution.
    I forgot the title again, I hope that doesn't bother you...

    WOLF

  10. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Shane, lets talk about links. Every post I've seen from you includes a link to your personal web site. You personally benefit by providing that link how many thousand times? I don't think bogley would be happy if I was self promoting. I guess that's the difference between having a financial interest in a site and not. And you talk about having links within reason.
    You really lost me here.... exactly which links of mine are you talking about? Not that it really matters, as I take full advantage of all linking opportunities available to me. Anyone that hasn't figured that out by now just isn't paying attention.

    But the linking issue discussed above was never about ME and Climb-Utah, it was between Bogley and American Canyoneers and what would be acceptable between the two forums.... apples and oranges... If you want to discuss establishing links between Climb-Utah and American Canyoneers then I'm your man.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    So, Mr. Iceaxe, what do you want to do. Are we just going to do battle and spar, or work together. I personally am going to pay $100 for my $25 membership, because I want to see this succeed and I have no financial interest in any of this. What are you going to do? When americancanyoneers is successful, you stand to gain more then most by having more areas for beta available and more interested enthusiasts.
    WOW!!! that was kinda harsh.... considering the amount of work I have put into canyon access over the years working with both land managers and SAR teams. I'm happy you are interested in access issues and have taken some action, but if you are going to head up an access organization you really need to get a better understanding of who has been doing what the past 15 years. Several people have been doing serious access work long before American Canyoneers came along.

    Heck.... I've even helped your organization. I made a small monetary contribution, I have provided your organization with several access issues that needed immediate attention. I have provided information and feedback to several of your BOD members that have approached me for advice, guidance and contacts. I've probably done some other really cool stuff that I've already forgotten.... yippee.... give me a pat on the back....

    So.... I guess the part that concerns me the most at the moment is how little you actually know about what is going on in regards to access (at least in Utah which is the extent of my realm). So I'll be happy to give you the benefit of the doubt at the moment as I know you are a total noob at this access stuff. But you might want to do a little research and talk with a few land managers, maybe a AC BOD member or two, perhaps your accident team, maybe a couple of SAR teams before making too many a judgements. How much additional support I give American Canyoneers in the future is still an open subject with me. But either way, with the AC or without the AC I will continue to work towards access.

    Now Mr. Wolf... do you have any other questions for me?



  11. #50
    Since the interaction is occurring here I will critique here.

    I have strong hopes for the American Canyoneers for the coming years. The transparency thus far has been encouraging. However, I think I have strong reservations about anyone in the iBOD engaging in such conversations as this. The AC is officially a political organization and its communication should reflect such efforts. I would hope to see very few interactions such as this on internet forums as I believe it undermines the respect of the organization as well as the already strained connections within the community. We can learn from a decade+ long history how quickly a single person's style and interactions can paint the reputation of an entire organization.

    Wolf, I admire your efforts thus far. You took talk and put it into action. I look forward to watching the organization blossom and hopefully strike a cord with a large membership base. But these forums are a double-edged sword and I would argue that they are not the best venue for engagement for discussing the type of details that are now polluting this thread.

    Phillip

  12. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Dear Mr. Deathcricket:
    "Butthurtness" my butt doesn't hurt, in fact I think it's kind of sexy being 53 yrs old. It's also not "my" ego that's the concern. So according to your logic it should be okay for Tom to post a link to his site on every message. He also provides excellent products to members. Maybe I could add a link to my favorite home builder or favorite porn site since you started talking about butts.
    Shane provides valuable information for canyoneers, I have no problem with that. Shane has added some valuable info on the AC site, ref Arches, which will be incorporated after access comes on line. But, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
    Look, it's easy sitting on the sideline quarterbacking, going I'll see if I'm "pleasantly surprised". Add no monetary fund even though you directly benefit. It's a whole other issue being in the trenches putting it together. It's your organization as much as mine. Come be part of the solution.
    I forgot the title again, I hope that doesn't bother you...

    WOLF
    1. Tom frequently links to his site. He has some awesome photos, trip reports, and store. They are always appreciated and I've clicked through them several times to read up on his awesome adventures and I personally own 3 of his ropes. Same with Dan Ransom, awesome website/blog and seriously a joy to click on his links. If anyone wants to put a direct link to their website in their sig it's no big deal at all. Trying to criticize Ice for linking his website via sig is utterly ridiculous and nearing retardation levels, quite frankly.

    2. You should probably do a little more surfing if you are going to be communicating via web formats. Your utter lack of knowledge in this area is appalling. Not having a clue on how signatures work and not understanding basic internet terminology are 2 factors that are seriously going to hinder you, for example. (I feel I should at least help you out)

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ButtHurt
    ButtHurt
    An inappropriately strong negative emotional response from a perceived personal insult. Characterized by strong feelings of shame. Frequently associated with a cessation of communication and overt hostility towards the "aggressor.
    Perhaps now you can understand my earlier comment to mean that their were bad feelings and resentment. And nothing of a sexual nature which you seem to be hinting at. But you are so way out in left field I guess it doesn't even matter really. *shrug*

    3. The "armchair quarterbacking" comment is probably warranted and valid. But you will find I'm very passionate about causes I believe in. I simply don't believe this org will achieve any valid results, and would rather not waste time/money on it. Pretty much every comment you're posted so far further confirms my suspicions. But you have some great people working with you who I do believe in and respect. Once I see some progress besides a super cool hangout for bros, I will probably come on board as well. As I do wish you luck!
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  13. #52
    There is no doubt you have done a lot for the canyoneering community. You have a lot of knowledge dealing with land owners and managers. That was never the issue. There are a lot of other individuals that deal in the same realm: Ram, Tom, Kip, Rich to mention a few, there are many more out there. You also at least make a partial living selling beta, access is an intricate part of that. So here comes americancanyoneers who want to deal in access in a non profit format. Information available to anyone free of charge. Can climb utah and AC coexist? How do you see that happening without you having 100% control of everything?

    The Noob

  14. #53
    I agree with Phillip. This is a disappointing exchange to see air publicly, and so quickly too. Wolf, don't undo all your hard work by getting involved in this. There are legitimate concerns being brought up, but they are clouding the real issue here.

    Here's the deal. It seems like AC is in a catch 22. In order to file for nonprofit they need more money to pay a lawyer to get this done right. We don't seem to have a clear understanding of how much. Maybe $1500? Maybe $4k? In order to get money, it seems they need to offer memberships. People are reluctant to pay for memberships without knowing what they are paying for, or having an actual clear understanding of what the organization will do. It's a very fair reservation to have. No need to be offended by it.

    To keep it simple, I think AC should just say - we don't have the money to pay a lawyer to file the paperwork. We need $1500 more (or however much.) However, by discussing merchandising plans and membership tiers and accident reports and what not, the iBOD is only confusing the issue. AC needs money in order to become a legal entity. There is not enough money yet. Without the money, progress is halted.

    How do they raise that money? By having paid memberships? Seems unlikely people are going to sign up, and in enough numbers to raise the necessary money by that method alone, especially so early in its infancy. The only other option, as I see it, is to ASK for those of us who will be potential members to put up the money up front, so that the organization becomes formal.

    Is that what needs to happen? If so, just tell us that's what's up. I'll put up $200 more dollars if it will help. I bet there is at least 10 more people who will do the same. Probably 20. Problem solved.

    Let's get this organization a lawyer and make it happen.

  15. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    There are a lot of other individuals that deal in the same realm: Ram, Tom, Kip, Rich to mention a few, there are many more out there.
    Yes sir, lots of people doing good stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    You also at least make a partial living selling beta, access is an intricate part of that.
    Technically I lose money on Climb-Utah at a pretty high rate, and by that I mean its much more profitable for me to work at my day job instead of playing with Climb-Utah, which I regard as a hobby/toy. I do Climb-Utah for a lot of reasons, but money isn't one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Can climb utah and AC coexist? How do you see that happening without you having 100% control of everything?
    Where in the hell do you get this stuff from? I have asked for zero control of AC, I want zero control of AC. I'm still not sure if I even want anything to do with AC as I'm still on the fence watching the progress. If I desired any control or official capacity what-so-ever in AC I'd just run for the BOD.

    I'm really not sure why you consider me an antagonist? Maybe because I haven't jumped on the bandwagon and started loading supplies?

    Unless I'm missing something, the only thing I have done is offer input and opinions when asked, and perhaps provided an observation or two.

  16. #55
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    So the AC's has now become Wolf's personal, Us vs. them.
    Just what I don't want.
    I didn't know the AC had a spokesman(wolf), I thought an ibod was to get everything started and put in motion an election for a BOD.(couldn't happen soon enough)
    Seems as though what was started, and supported by a large contingency, has now become a select few, from one small group
    Really, what diversity is in the ibod? I see a preaching to your choir group.

    I'm an occasional off road guy, I own an atv, who represents these ideals and method of access?
    And don't say they are not a part of canyoneering when they are, and have been used for Grand canyon, Parashant and other access.
    How bout boats and Lake Powell access, who represents this small group?

    Yep, not impressed with "your" AC , Wolf.
    but hey, we're just here from bogley, you don't want our support.

    I've personally witnessed members of the "ibod" using this position to their, and maybe others benefit by claiming to be on the BOD for AC.`



    Without an "elected BOD" in a position to be ousted by members in the next election, this group is destined to fail and fast.........

    Still sitting back and wondering, who's "really" running this charade.

    Guess I'll hang out here and if I see no need for the AC--oh well..........

    by the way--got my 2 canyons in this weekend, how bout you?

  17. #56
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Heres an access/land use example, wolf.

    Do you and your group support draining of Lake Powell and returning natural flows through the Grand Canyon, or
    do you support working with the Lake Powell NRA/Navajo Nation, in providing uncomplicated canyoneer access throughout the Lake?
    Can there be both?
    Where do you stand?

    It's no secret that Glen Canyon contains possibly the highest concentration of canyonerring potential, maybe in the world.

  18. #57
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Oh, and wolf--could you post a link to the AC by-laws which prohibit a member from posting with a link to there own for profit website, thanks.

  19. #58
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    2. You should probably do a little more surfing if you are going to be communicating via web formats. Your utter lack of knowledge in this area is appalling. Not having a clue on how signatures work and not understanding basic internet terminology are 2 factors that are seriously going to hinder you, for example. (I feel I should at least help you out)

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ButtHurt
    Perhaps now you can understand my earlier comment to mean that their were bad feelings and resentment. And nothing of a sexual nature which you seem to be hinting at. But you are so way out in left field I guess it doesn't even matter really. *shrug*
    I guess it then surprises you, DeathCricket, that the term "ButtHurt" may not be in circulation among all that many members of the canyoneering community. I checked down at the Ward last Sunday and amongst the fine folk of Orderville, it did not seem to be in common use. Didn't get much of a survey going, since the Bishop give me "that look" and suggested I vamoose. Again.

    Should we just tattoo "L"s on our foreheads if, surprise surprise, we assume it means what the words mean in English? And maybe take offense to it, since we were trying to have an actual conversation. Here let me make that easier for you:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conversation

    con

  20. #59
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    So the AC's has now become Wolf's personal, Us vs. them.
    Just what I don't want.
    I didn't know the AC had a spokesman(wolf), I thought an ibod was to get everything started and put in motion an election for a BOD.(couldn't happen soon enough)
    Seems as though what was started, and supported by a large contingency, has now become a select few, from one small group
    Really, what diversity is in the ibod? I see a preaching to your choir group.

    I'm an occasional off road guy, I own an atv, who represents these ideals and method of access?
    And don't say they are not a part of canyoneering when they are, and have been used for Grand canyon, Parashant and other access.
    How bout boats and Lake Powell access, who represents this small group?

    Yep, not impressed with "your" AC , Wolf.
    but hey, we're just here from bogley, you don't want our support.

    I've personally witnessed members of the "ibod" using this position to their, and maybe others benefit by claiming to be on the BOD for AC.`

    Without an "elected BOD" in a position to be ousted by members in the next election, this group is destined to fail and fast.........

    Still sitting back and wondering, who's "really" running this charade. Guess I'll hang out here and if I see no need for the AC--oh well..........

    By the way--got my 2 canyons in this weekend, how bout you?
    Seriously...

    WTF Kurt? Smashed your hammer with a thumb? Half a bottle of Old #7 addling your brain? What is this, Get the Noob Night????

    You're way out of line. So are you, Shane. DeathCricket I am used to being a complete A** - it's just the way he's built. But Shane and Kurt, c'mon, don't be such douches. Count to 10 before post. Heck, count to a hundred! You jump the Wolf like the Pallin family in a borrowed Huey. Show SOME degree of fairness - at least land and shoot em from the ground!!!

    Wolf can be combative - he's a terrier-type. Rarely backs down from a fight. In person, you'd see the wry smile on his face showing it to be sport. But here on the Interwebs, things seem to spiral out of control might quick, unfortunately.

    This all started from a slightly inappropriate action taken by a Bogley moderator, that got straightened out pretty fast, to everyone's advantage. A couple cheap shots were thrown around, and now you guys are making up accusations left and right. Or, in Utah that would be right and righter. I find it rather rude. So just CHILL. Relax, have another snort of the Jack. Go shoot some bottles or something. Take your medication, no matter what the voices say.

    Wolf and I appreciate the criticism. Thank you for pointing out our inadequacies. But the form of the criticism is a little over the top.

    ***

    No canyons for me. But I did get in 11 Sundance Movies, with my best ratio ever: no stinkers, no mediocres, 8 good ones and 3 greats!

    Tom

  21. #60
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    So Tom
    You seem to answer a lot for wolf.
    I view wolf as one who comes to bogley telling us what he and his chronies are doing at the AC site, seems quite a bit like another site we used to frequent.
    I thought the idea with the AC was to have a diverse group of canyoneers that shared access issues, all I'm seeing is a group set up to move personal agendas---AGAIN.

    Please, prove me wrong....Show me the diversity.

    Thanks for your concern of my health(smashed finger or drunk) neither would be the case, I can't recall the last time I've been drunk, but I do enjoy a drink when I get home from work at night.
    Maybe instead if insulting me, you could try to explain the questions I've asked wolf, as it seems your his spokesman.

    Tom
    is the only way for you to hold the intellectual high ground, to reduce that high ground to a prairie.

    And as an aside--it's very difficult to smash a hammer with ones thumb, just sayin' oh wise one......

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