American Canyoneers needs your input!

[msmnificent]

Have you logged onto the new American Canyoneers group yet? The group has been formed with the primary intent of working on canyoneering access, in part, by promoting conservation, safety, and education. We want you to participate in the discussion regarding these important issues. One project that is in the early development stages that you can give input on right now is the process of reporting on and learning from accidents to try to reduce future accidents in canyoneering. To do this, check out the forum on Accident Report Progress and provide your feedback!
Find it at americancanyoneers dot org.
Thanks and happy canyoneering!
-Malia

[Deathcricket]

http://www.americancanyoneers.org/fo...c.php?f=3&t=66

Malia and I have begun working on the Accident Report process. Our intent is not to try and place blame, but to try and determine the conditions that existed that may have contributed to the accident.

We are hoping you will be part of this process and provide feedback about how we can improve the questionaire (its below).

Our plan is as follows:
1 - Post the questionaire on the forum (its below) for two weeks for feedback.
2- Review your feedback.
3- Integrate your feedback into a 2nd draft of the questionaire
4- Test the questionaire on a recent canyon accident, by asking participants to complete the questionaire.
5- Write up an accident report based on the completed questionaires.
6 - Submit the questionaires along with the accident report on the forum for additional feedback regarding the overall process, our conclusions from the questionaires, etc.

Below is a rough draft of the questionaire we will ask participants to complete when involved in a canyoneering accident.

The parts between paranthasis are the common traps in decision making. The question below each trap is designed to try and determine contributing factors.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[b]Accident Report Questionaire[/b
]Date of Incident: ____________________________ Date of Accident Report: __________________________
(These questions are designed to get the “big picture”)
Region: __________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Weather Conditions: __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________
(We are trying to get a good idea of the group dynamics that would contribute to decision making.)

What type of group was this?
Guided ____ Friends/Family ______ Boyscouts _____ Newly Acquainted ____
Was there a designated group leader? _____________ (If yes, who?) ___________________________
Were there any participants under 12? _________
What is the general level of experience for each member of the group:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________

(Familiarity Bias)
Have any of the members of the group descended this specific canyon previously? ______

(Acceptance Bias)
Did anything occur between canyoneers that made you feel uncomfortable?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

(Commitment Bias)

Before committing to the canyon, were there any factors that made you reluctant to change plans?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________

In hindsight, were there any factors that should have caused you to consider changing your plans?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________
(Expert Halo:)

From your point of view, did you try to contribute to decision making?
Was your input considered?
Please explain:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____
At the time the incident occurred….did the group dynamic or decision making process change in any way? _____________ If yes, please explain…
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

(Scarcity Bias:)

What attracted your group to choosing this canyon?
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

Summary of Incident:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________
Kudos (items the group did well to decrease the impact of the incident):
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________
Recommendations (items implemented correctly that would have avoided the incident):
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________
Assessing members names and email addresses:
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

May we contact you for more information:
Name: _______________________________ Phone: _________________________________
Email Address: __________________________________________________ ______________________

I doubt everyone wants to go through the huge hassle of browsing your entire site looking for a single thread, hope you don't mind I linked directly to it.

I dunno, seems too formulated and rigid to me. I think having an accident is a deeply personal issue and people should be free to express it in a more "organic" way. I like to hear the story and what details are important to the person who experienced it. Filling out a questionaire seems to diminish the experience. It's like filling out a form about your last sexual encounter, it's better in story mode and hearing the person tell it in their own words.

[ratagonia]

Thanks for digging out the link, DC. some concern about an actual link being censored, here at Bogley Inc.

Stories are great, but they don't contribute much to the safety of the community, especially when people leave out key details or dodge responsibility. Trying to find TRENDS in what causes accidents is even more problematic, thus an organized methodology is required.

Filling out the form does not relieve one of the responsibility of telling it as a good story, around the campfire. Attention to actual truth not a requirement...

Tom

[Deathcricket]

Interesting theory I guess, would be interested to hear the results. in my opinion accidents are only reported for the following reasons.

1. It's an exciting story and makes a great tale or survival, overcoming adversity, or escape.
2. They made a mistake of some sort and they want to come to grips with it, maybe help others avoid said mistake.
3. They got caught. Someone saw them, heard about lifeflight, concerned family members blew the whistle, other canyoneers stumbled upon them, etc. They feel the need to defend themselves or their actions and "set the record straight".

In none of these cases would people prefer to use a standardized form. But I agree it's a good place to start gathering data, or trying to. Keep us updated on how successful this marketing strategy works out for ya. Could make for some interesting spreadsheets in the next couple years. Assuming people actually use it. Good luck though.

[accadacca]

I would be interested in reading periodic updates on the overall progress that the AC is making without sifting through all the forum threads. It would be great to have a simple page called "news" or something linked from the AC main/home page that could be easily accessed and read by those seeking these types of updates, but don't want to search for it.

[CarpeyBiggs]

The board is posting minutes from their meetings. Right now, that's probably the best place to see what they're up to.

http://www.americancanyoneers.org/fo...c.php?f=3&t=51

[Deathcricket]

$50 per year membership dues? Holy Crapage! I can't even bring myself to register for free on the site.

[CarpeyBiggs]

$50 per year membership dues? Holy Crapage! I can't even bring myself to register for free on the site.

3. Membership
a. Two people working on it for now—coming up with a fee structure, etc.
b. Proposed: $50 per year dues with some sort of tangible product provided to members?
c. Other ideas?
d. Do we have a threshold on what the annual fee should be?
e. Proposed alternative: $25 basic, and higher rate option for people who want to provide more support? Lower rate will attract more members, and with a larger member base the AC group will have more credibility/influence.
f. Proposed alternative: Tiered rates, including discounts for students, and individual rate, a couple’s rate, a family rate, and a higher rate for those who can/wish to provide more support?

Nothing looks finalized, so far as I can tell...

[Iceaxe]

Not that anyone asked me..... but $50 a year is too much.

Just curious.... how is this accident form supposed to relate/improve access? And why does the AC think folks will take the time to fill out the forms? I don't think anyone ever filled out an accident form when the ACA tried a similar approach. I understand a lot of this is still in the development stage, I'm just kinda wondering where this is all headed and the reasoning behind it.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Not that anyone asked me..... but $50 a year is too much.

I agree. I would doubt that it's actually going to be that high, but I suppose it's up to us as community members to send feedback to the board. The reason the minutes are posted though is so the board can get a better feel for exactly what will best help the community. If $50 will keep people from joining, then the community should make it known. The obvious question is what will the money be used for, exactly... And what are the benefits to membership, exactly? Seems like those details are yet to be determined, and once they are, maybe it will all make more sense?

Just curious.... how is this accident form supposed to relate/improve access? And why does the AC think folks will take the time to fill out the forms? I don't think anyone ever filled out an accident form when the ACA tried a similar approach. I understand a lot of this is still in the development stage, I'm just kinda wondering where this is all headed and the reasoning behind it.

I can't answer definitively... However, I know there is some academic muscle behind it. From what little I know, Troy at the U of U and Steve from BYU-I have been doing a lot of research on canyoneering accidents over the last few years. My guess is that analyzing the data will help assist land managers in developing more efficient SAR protocols, and target areas that can help the most. Will probably shed light on user days compared to backcountry accidents, compared to permits, etc...

Just my guess though.

You can always ask on the AC site, where the guys doing the research are more likely to answer.

[Deathcricket]

The obvious question is what will the money be used for, exactly... And what are the benefits to membership, exactly? Seems like those details are yet to be determined, and once they are, maybe it will all make more sense?

Yeah good point bro. I guess once you know what you get for $50, $30, $25 it might make more sense. Perhaps I jumped the gun a bit with my last comment. Even $50 isn't too much when it goes to a good cause, really. Carry on!

[restrac2000]

Accident studies don't have much direct affect on access. However, if done properly, they can have indirect benefits. Avalanche educators starting directly incorporating McCammon's feedback into their curriculum as early as 2005 I believe. The heuristics and trends allowed them justify focus more on the the "human dynamics" of education, where in the past the focus had been on hard skills. Several companies completely rearranged the material in the courses based on the findings, specifically how certain levels of education translate into behavior in the field.

Now, this could be applied in canyoneering as well. It will likely be at least 5-10 years before strong enough results could be justified to change the manner in which educate students. Nonetheless, if we can show land managers that we are researching our own community and adapting when possible then we may be able to further justify access into any questionable areas (such as those that have seen high incidents of accidents). Highly uncertain but I personally don't see much harm in the process.

As the questionaire is structured now, I see very little benefit to SAR protocols or resource questions. That could change but the questions don't seem to reflect any possible conclusions to those fields.

Also agree that $50 is too much for an annual fee. But it all depends on the "benefits" to the membership. I would rather not see any consumer benefits attached to the membership but I am holding off om much input right now (I am a vocal enough member as it is). Will be interesting to see the minutes from the next meeting.

Phillip

[Iceaxe]

Yeah good point bro. I guess once you know what you get for $50, $30, $25 it might make more sense. Perhaps I jumped the gun a bit with my last comment. Even $50 isn't too much when it goes to a good cause, really. Carry on!

While access is a great value in the grand scheme of things.... I think most people making a purchase want something they can actually touch, at least in this time of instant gratification.

That combined with the fact that Canyoneers are a notoriously cheap.... err.... economical group when taken as a whole. If we were talking the off-road crowded I don't think they would even blink at $50, but canyoneers tend to want a real bargain for their dollars spent.

[Iceaxe]

Highly uncertain but I personally don't see much harm in the process.

I also don't see any harm in compiling the data, I was just curious what the general use plan for it was at the moment. I'm also wondering how many people would actually take the time to bother filling out the form. It's long and doesn't look like it would be much in the way of fun. I figure Bogley is lucky to get a one paragraph incident report after and accident. Sometimes getting that much is like pulling teeth.

[restrac2000]

Fair concern. Also fair to note the study being emulated was done as a meta-analysis on existing reports, i.e. no self-reporting. I have noted my concerns about self reporting on the American Canyoneers site. Wording and structure is extremely important to remove the various biases that all of us. Tom talked a lot about these issues in regard to the Zion surveys years ago. Different situation but similar consequences.

Phillip

[peakbaggers]

http://www.americanalpineclub.org/p/anam
The above link is to "Accidents In North American Mountaineering" and may be a useful guide in this discussion -you can learn a little about how they collect data, purposes, etc. They spend a great deal of time analyzing the dynamics of reported accidents, probably far more than what's in mind here, but I have found their reports very instructive over the years. I really dislike the newspaper, radio & TV reports of climbing or canyoneering accidents. They are ususally misinformed as to the exact location, and what really happened & are useless for reliable info. I like some detailed accident reports. They can be helpful in avoiding making the same/similar mistakes. If involved in an accident, I'd want others to know what happened so they can avoid the same. There may be legal issues in admission of fault, but as noted earlier, blame placement is not the ultimate goal, though I'm sure that in the reporting, evidence of blame may easily surface.
In regards to the $50/per person fee, - yep, I consider that too high. Family discounts would be advisable. We just have too many recreational activities we like to do and associations that want our support. $25 would get my support. $50 is pushing it. I doubt that any tangible item offered (like water bottles, T-shirts, bumper stickers, etc) as an incentive would attract me to pay more, unless of course,they were throwing in a new 100 ft. rope! In that case, my check will be in the next days mail!

[Branin]

Has there been thought given to approaching the Access Fund about a partnership (or even a canyoneering division). It's an established organization with lots of members, reasonable coffers, and mostly good relationships with land managers. Could be a partnership worth exploring. Just my $.02

[ratagonia]

Has there been thought given to approaching the Access Fund about a partnership (or even a canyoneering division). It's an established organization with lots of members, reasonable coffers, and mostly good relationships with land managers. Could be a partnership worth exploring. Just my $.02

I did some work for the Access Fund, quite some time ago, and have established contacts there. Being part of the Access Fund seems unlikely. Using them for coaching and coordinating comments we are already doing, at least on an informal basis. Learning from them is certainly part of our gig.

Tom

[Randi]

$50 per year membership dues? Holy Crapage!

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I won't even buy a COSTCO card at that price! Good luck to the Org for whatever they're trying to do, but I cringe at the thought of organization for the sake of organizing. I guess that's why they kicked me out of the San Gabriel chapter of the ACA early on. I'm interested to see what develops but not interested in the least in any sort of imposed structure/method/stifle-my-innovation-with-rules when I go outdoors. And now an accident form? Accidents are not a laughing matter, but I find this funny....I really do. And already talk of merchandising? OH MY! It reminds me of SpaceBalls!

Lone Starr: But Yogurt, what is this place? What is it that you do here?
Yogurt: Moichandising.
Barf: Merchandising? What's that?
Yogurt: Moichandising! Come, I'll show you. [to the Dinks] Open up this door.
[Yogurt walks over to a wall filled with Spaceballs merchandise.]
Yogurt: Heh-heh. Come! We put the picture's name on everything!
[everyone is staring in amazement]
Yogurt: Moichandising! Moichandising! Where the real money from the movie is made. Spaceballs: the T-shirt, Spaceballs: the Coloring Book [holds up a Transformers comic book], Spaceballs: the Lunchbox, Spaceballs: the Breakfast Cereal! Spaceballs: the Flame Thrower!! [fires a blast from flame thrower]
Dinks: Ooohh!
Yogurt: The kids love this one. And last, but not least, Spaceballs: the Doll- me.
[Yogurt squeezes the doll, which says "May the Schwartz be with you!"]
Yogurt: Adorable.

[Deathcricket]

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I won't even buy a COSTCO card at that price!

OMG I love spaceballs!!! Regarding Costco though, if you get the premium membership ($100) they actually pay you back. It's not a lot but I get a check back for like $150 at the end of the year. It's based on how much you spend there. You basically have to spend $2500 to break even, which is pretty much one TV purchase, and they even will refund your membership fee if you are unsatisfied with it. I would encourage you to check it out.