Tommy takes a tumble

[restrac2000]

First, thanks for sharing that post Jenny.

I have always pushed the lightest person goes last practice as well. When its within a close range I prefer the "you built it, you go last" philosophy. But I am curious. When it boils down to it, does 30-50 pounds really make that big of a difference with an anchor? And if so, shouldn't that throw up major red flags regarding quality and safety? I mean if I was really to think about it in the field, I would much rather build a different anchor if it came down to that difference. But maybe thats why I stopped pushing my limits in canyoneering so long ago. That sort of edgework is not what I find meaningful in canyoneering.

Phillip

[oldno7]

Seriously, this is a valid question that came from some keen thinking, in my opinion. So, I'll come out of lurk status to offer my perspective.
With very few exceptions I rappel last on the SandTrap and all weight sensitive anchors. I offer/request to go last on rappel under two conditions; 1) when a lighter weight may be the safest option for anchor stability and I weigh the least in the group, 2) when I have set the anchor and ALWAYS if the anchor is a prototype of my design. If I opt to go last on an anchor, I fully focus on the “test” rappels and engage myself in the certainty that it will be safe. I make whatever adjustments to ensure that the anchor will hold me, that the sand will properly spill out, and that the retrieval lines are set for successful pull. I do not defer to anyone on these points; my life, my choice, my consequences to suffer and/or celebrate. I have great confidence in my ability to make the SandTrap safe and retrievable. I may have been “last (wo)man” more often than anyone else out there and have never had a SandTrap stick. Maybe the wiser choice? I should have taken the time to fully discuss the set up of Tom’s water anchor to become comfortable with the safety of it. Had I agreed to “go last”, I would not have done so without full engagement in the set up, testing, and had a great degree of control over all stages of deployment. Trusting that all of this was occurring for the safety of someone else rappelling last and not supporting that with my personal experience/perspective was irresponsible on my part. I deferred to Tom and held him accountable for his protocol of “he who set it goes last”. I chose to dismiss his asking me if I wanted to go last. Did he have concern there?A discussion should have occurred at that point. Tom and I shared a recent near miss of another prototype anchor tool where I was left to go last and did not fully complete the debrief of this incident. Awkward? Afraid of disagreement? I think that avoidance of conflict (OR WHATEVER) is not a viable excuse for ignoring concerns in these types of situations! I regret my cowardice in this instance. I should have pressed the subject, risking disagreement and arrived at safe decision for a “go last” protocol.
We were lucky in this instance and hopefully have shed some light (within all the drama and silliness) on some of the lessons available from the mistakes made.

Thank You Jenny for a "much better" accounting.
I quoted your entirety again, I hope Dan doesn't get mad.
Much of what you wrote is what I surmised earlier in this thread.
Really am glad all is o.k. and you guys are bringing us in on the event.
I'm learning

[Randi]

I've noticed canyoneers have a habit of being complacent on shorter rappels. Anchors they would never consider using on a 200' rappel are somehow acceptable on a 30' rappel.

That's probably a bad habit we should all work to correct.

I'm not saying that is what happened here.... just a general observation about rappel anchors in general.

[CarpeyBiggs]

When it boils down to it, does 30-50 pounds really make that big of a difference with an anchor?

in my opinion, certainly could... i bet the margin of error on some of these setups is maybe 100-200 pounds. could someone dynamically loading an anchor who weighs 50 pounds more create enough force to make the anchor fail? certainly seems within the realm of possible.

And if so, shouldn't that throw up major red flags regarding quality and safety?

perhaps. but, these systems aren't tested by anything other than "let's test it and see if it moves." if it doesn't move, how do you figure out how much force it will take for it to fail? hard to really figure out the margin of error. this accident has me seriously wondering what the margin is. i have my suspicions it might be even more slim than i previously thought.

I mean if I was really to think about it in the field, I would much rather build a different anchor if it came down to that difference.

interestingly, there are some canyons where i honestly don't know what you'd do without sandtrap anchors. fortunately, most of them are on powell and casual canyoneers wouldn't just walk into them. but in these big sand filled pothole canyons, the sandtrap makes a lot of sense, and it is what i'd consider bombproof. it solves a lot of tough anchor situations. but... there's always a but....

But maybe thats why I stopped pushing my limits in canyoneering so long ago. That sort of edgework is not what I find meaningful in canyoneering.

you and me both...

[ilipichicuma]

First, thanks for sharing that post Jenny.

I have always pushed the lightest person goes last practice as well. When its within a close range I prefer the "you built it, you go last" philosophy. But I am curious. When it boils down to it, does 30-50 pounds really make that big of a difference with an anchor? And if so, shouldn't that throw up major red flags regarding quality and safety? I mean if I was really to think about it in the field, I would much rather build a different anchor if it came down to that difference. But maybe thats why I stopped pushing my limits in canyoneering so long ago. That sort of edgework is not what I find meaningful in canyoneering.

Phillip

This is a good question, but I know from experience that an anchor can work for everyone but me. Being the fattest in my group of friends, I often end up going down first (with backups), as I have at least 30 pounds on the next to heaviest person. We don't have a sandtrap, but we've found that two loaded potshots with enough friction can anchor anyone in our group pretty safely...except for me. So, yes, 30-50 pounds can make a pretty big difference, at least in my (by no means vast) experience.

[oldno7]

I would guess the weight differential in Tom's group, is closer to 70-80lbs. Which in of itself, may or may not be significant.
BUT-even a super smooth, great rappeller can increase this # greatly, stopping would multiply this #.

I think the adjective for anchors is fairly important here. (Bomber/Marginal)
If it requires backing, it IS NOT BOMBER!
The distinction is important because it plays a key role in how an anchor is utilized.
A bomber anchor(imo) has the ability to also aid in rescue. ie. raise/lower/tandem, etc.
This plays out in this groups scenario, in this canyon. If Tom was rendered unconscious or immobile, required immediate evacuation,
what would be the plan? Is someone willing to rig up a tandem rappel off a sand/watertrap?

So, I sit and now, Saturday morning quarterback. I think what this group is doing is exemplary. The methods being discovered are cutting edge, there are inherent
risks with these methods, which NO ONE FULLY UNDERSTANDS OR CAN CALCULATE. Getting comfortable on your 201st sandtrap rappel, does not mean the 202nd won't fail.
This is definitely no arena for complacency.

[restrac2000]

I tend to agree with your idea about bomber anchors, oldno7. I also think I have moved further into the category of casual canyoneers by choice. Don't think that will surprise anyone that ever cannoned with me; never enjoyed that ballet at the edge.

Phillip

[Iceaxe]

This is a good question, but I know from experience that an anchor can work for everyone but me. Being the fattest in my group of friends,

That's for weighting in on this topic.





Sorry.... I couldn't help myself... all said in fun and games.

[CLE]

This is more of a general question related to the water trap, which may or may not have anything to do with this specific incident. I have not seen or used a water trap. Based on descriptions here, I picture it as basically a bag with water in it, probably having a simple means for releasing the water remotely. Oldno7 commented back in the thread about frictional differences between using sand versus water. What about the wave action that could be initiated in the water bag? Does jerking on the anchor (e.g. quickly stopping a rappel) cause the water to slosh back and forth? If that wave combined in phase with another bouncing of the rope, could that not marginalize the water trap anchor due to the water flowing back in the direction of the rappel? Depending on how much back-and-forth water movement occured and the form of the hole the water trap is in, it seems that this anchor could vary in its strength during a rappel. Is that correct?

[ratagonia]

This is more of a general question related to the water trap, which may or may not have anything to do with this specific incident. I have not seen or used a water trap. Based on descriptions here, I picture it as basically a bag with water in it, probably having a simple means for releasing the water remotely. Oldno7 commented back in the thread about frictional differences between using sand versus water. What about the wave action that could be initiated in the water bag? Does jerking on the anchor (e.g. quickly stopping a rappel) cause the water to slosh back and forth? If that wave combined in phase with another bouncing of the rope, could that not marginalize the water trap anchor due to the water flowing back in the direction of the rappel? Depending on how much back-and-forth water movement occured and the form of the hole the water trap is in, it seems that this anchor could vary in its strength during a rappel. Is that correct?

In theory, perhaps. But it is a small bag, so the frequency is pretty high, much much higher than the cycle you would induce rappelling.

But really, all theorizing aside, the choice of where to put it was really, really bad. Wish we had a picture of what I saw as I went over the edge, so we could all just say "what a knucklehead!".

[JennyMae]

Wish we had a picture of what I saw as I went over the edge, so we could all just say "what a knucklehead!".

OK, I'll say it, "What a knucklehead!" But a brilliant one and one soon to have a skinny white arm freed to move forward to create great canyoneering tools for the common folk.