Is there any interest in a REAL canyoneering association?

[Scott Card]

I would be willing to help build a website for said organization and be the webmaster. I have access to resources and the technical skill myself. I manage a web team and direct a dozen technology professionals. I also have some server space that I could put it on for free. When it gets organized, if the need arises, then the offer is extended.

That is mighty generous. Thanks.

[Cirrus2000]

I would also add that discussion of low impact techniques (eg. staying in watercourse, natural anchors when possible/appropriate, following permit systems even when they can be tedious) and finding ways to get those techniques more widely embraced by the average joe canyoneer would be something to consider, because this directly affects access. If nobody does does something wrong, then access to new areas is easier an we maintain access to what we have. An association can advocate our cause and if a low impact mentality is part of our group then that gives more power to say "We are responsible, so you should give us more/easier access" or "this area has been closed because of bad behavior by previous canyoneers (eg. canyons on reservations) but we will follow your rules and respect the land". I know some of that is idealistic but I feel an association could help with these issues. I would like to see canyons on reservation land opened and I feel that creating respectful relationships through an association could help.

Excellent thoughts - I agree that this is a two-pronged approach, where each can support the other: education and access advocacy.

[ghawk]

Originally Posted by accadacca
I would be willing to help build a website for said organization and be the webmaster. I have access to resources and the technical skill myself. I manage a web team and direct a dozen technology professionals. I also have some server space that I could put it on for free. When it gets organized, if the need arises, then the offer is extended.

That is mighty generous. Thanks.

x2

[CarpeyBiggs]

there appears to be consensus that there is a need for an association (or at least enough interest to warrant proceeding). i do feel that creating an interim board, as suggested by Tom's email on the ACA site is a good starting point, much like Shane has suggested. any thoughts on what Tom posted there? Of course, we'd have to rethink how the interim BOD could be decided, but hearing thoughts on this process could be beneficial.

RCWILD said: "The ACA exists in name only now and with this website. I intend to give it to someone who can come up with a good plan for it in the future. Post in this thread what YOU will do with it. Share your vision with others and be willing to follow through with that vision."

Rich asked for people to propose plans, and few have. Perhaps the following proposal will stimulate some proposals.

Ratagonia Plan #1 for transition of the ACA to a membership-owned and operated organization.

A. On Nov 1st, Rich will identify the top 50 posters on the ACA Canyoneering.net forum.

B. The new interim Board of Directors (iBOD) will consist of all of the top 50 posters who choose to serve, excluding the following individuals: Rich Carlson, Tom Jones. Rich will send an invitation to the top 50 posters (less exclusions) to join the interim BOD. Those who accept the invitation by November 10th (inclusive) will have their emails forwarded to all acceptors. The first acceptor shall operate as Chairman until a Chairman can be elected.

C. Should less than 10 posters choose to participate by Nov 10th, invitations will be extended again to the non-acceptors, and to the next 20 top posters, for another 10 days. This will continue until an interim board of at least 10 individuals has agreed to participate.

D. The Interim Board will elect by simple majority a Chairman at the earliest opportunity. Each iBOD member will have one vote. The iBOD will set rules for itself, and publish minutes of meetings on Canyoneering.net.

E. The Mission Statement of the (new) ACA is proposed as:

E1. The ACA is a membership-owned, membership-governed non-profit Association who's purpose is to serve the Canyoneering Community.

F. The Goals of the Interim Board of Directors are proposed as follows:

F1. Create and operate a fair, open and democratic process for the membership to elect a founding Board of Directors of the new ACA, on or before April 1, 2012.

G. Membership in the ACA is frozen as of Oct 11, 2011. All members of the ACA as of Oct 11, 2011 are members of the new ACA.

H. At the time the Interim Board is seated, Rich Carlson will turn over Assets of the ACA to the Interim Board, consisting of, at least, the following:

H1. By quitclaim deed, the name "American Canyoneering Association" and all rights thereto, legal and otherwise.
H2. As in H1, the ACA Logo.
H3. A list of members as of Oct 11, 2011, in a usable electronic format, as best can be determined.
H4. The website canyoneering.net intact, with all content in place as of Oct 10, 2011. "The website" means domain hosting information and website host information including passwords. Rich Carlson will continue current DNS and Hosting services through Jan 31st, 2012, for which he will be paid $100.00 by an anonymous donor. On Nov 1, 2011, Rich will send Website information to James Kip Marshall to hold in trust for the iBOD of the new ACA. Passwords will be changed upon receipt of the information. The Trustee will hold the information in Trust until election of a new Board of Directors (past the iBod) is complete.
H5. A Bill of Sale indicating the sale of these assets, and whatever other assets the iBod chooses to accept before Jan 1, 2012, for the price of $10.00 (to be provided by an anonymous donor).

I. Should the iBod not hold elections on or before April 1st, 2012, the iBod will immediately lose authority, and authority will relinquish to a Board of Directors drawn from the following list of individuals, who choose to serve: Sonny Lawrence, Charly Oliver, Hank Moon, James Kip Marshall, Bo Beck, Michael Dallin, Steve Ramras, Rich Rudow, Todd Martin, Scott Card and four ACA members selected by Sonny Lawrence (excluding Tom Jones and Rich Carlson). The second interim Board of Directors (iBOD2) will accept the same charge as the first, and seek to hold elections by July 1st 2012. Should they fail to do so, all assets of the ACA will revert to Rich Carlson.

Thank you for your consideration.

Tom Jones
ACA Life Member

[jman]

Just a few essential/basic thoughts from my group of friends

1) Have one website (association), where announcements, alerts, closures, notices, etc. can be made for us USA canyoneers. Bogley's/Yahoo's purpose would be to discuss these things.
2) On the national website, perhaps having candition.com incorporated into it. There is tons of potential to the website and already have a good turnout, but more people updating would be very beneficial. Especially, where they could link their TR to Bogley, Yahoo, etc after updating the candition.
3) On the national website, list every (reputable) professional guide, training group/academy for the U.S.
4) If beta links where published on the national website, we foresee lots of problems with that. IE favoritism. So perhaps if a beta link was available it would tell a person on ways how to acquire the information, such as books available and how to type in a search engine "beta das boot zion" or something like that. Having specific links going to Tom's website, Shane, AJ, tanya's website would not be a good idea, in our opinion.
5) on the national website, maybe having how-to videos of knots, etc (of course with a disclaimer).

I'd like to elaborate on all of these but I'm pulling 12hrs at work today...

[Iceaxe]

Awesome stuff!

In one post Jman has eliminated many of the hurtles I could see.

I REALLY like all of these ideas.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Just a few essential/basic thoughts from my group of friends

1) Have one website (association), where announcements, alerts, closures, notices, etc. can be made for us USA canyoneers. Bogley's/Yahoo's purpose would be to discuss these things.
2) On the national website, perhaps having candition.com incorporated into it. There is tons of potential to the website and already have a good turnout, but more people updating would be very beneficial. Especially, where they could link their TR to Bogley, Yahoo, etc after updating the candition.
3) On the national website, list every (reputable) professional guide, training group/academy for the U.S.
4) If beta links where published on the national website, we foresee lots of problems with that. IE favoritism. So perhaps if a beta link was available it would tell a person on ways how to acquire the information, such as books available and how to type in a search engine "beta das boot zion" or something like that. Having specific links going to Tom's website, Shane, AJ, tanya's website would not be a good idea, in our opinion.
5) on the national website, maybe having how-to videos of knots, etc (of course with a disclaimer).

I'd like to elaborate on all of these but I'm pulling 12hrs at work today...

i do like where some of this is headed... though i think some of the ideas are a few steps ahead of where we should be right now. however, i feel like the formation of a website, central area for discussion, and a system put in place to install an interim board should be the next step. thanks jman.

[jman]

Wow thanks Shane. OUR (my group) concern is uniformity/standardization.

Sure canyoneers are like cats as the adage goes. However, that doesn't mean we can't agree on the basics of the sport. The allure of canyoneering for us is the problem-solving along with the beauty. And we can still keep the problem-solving there.

Basically, what I'm getting at is letting the interested people (veterans, noobs) gain as much free information as possible. Videos on how to tie knots, how to equalize anchor points, how to change friction settings on the descender devices, etc. and the interim BOD can agree upon a willing expert canyoneer (Tom Jones for example) to do instructionals on the videos and they (or we) could reimburse him for the time. Heck, my group is already doing this for our personal website, and we would be willing to do it for free for the new association. It would be handy to have these things posted so people can easily reference it (and for free) and then Bogley & Yahoo can have discussions about if people ask.

Another thing,
Have the national association endorse the two forums for canyoneering - Bogley a Yahoo for us USA canyoneers, for private and public discussions. We don't need necessarily 5 forums to confuse noobs. Besides, the #1 goal is to ensure the safety of the canyoneer. And we would want to give them as much information and resources as possible.

[Iceaxe]

For an interim BOD I say seek a list of those that would be willing to serve a 3 or 6 month initial term, with the understanding that a democratic election will be held in 6 months at the latest. See what the numbers are, if you have 10 to 20 apply your business is done. If more apply you will need to hold some type of election, with say any member of Yahoo, Bogley or ACA can vote for their 6 favorite choices. The top 12 or 15 are your interim BOD. If less than 10 apply the entire idea of a new organization should be buried under the heading, lack of support.

[tanya]

This is all sounding great guys!

[nelsonccc]

One area I think as a group we need to be stronger is volunteering. As a climber and off road enthusiast it seemed we were always setting up and doing volunteer work. I think it goes a long way to presenting a better image, a cohesive front, and a way for govt to get stuff done quicker and sometimes without the typical hurdles.

I think access is incredibly important. Establishing some form of a strong, unified front is imperative. I deal with Unions all day here in our firm and fabrication shop and while it drives me crazy sometimes the benefits can clearly be seen.

The canyoneering community needs something like that.

As far as tracking the discussion perhaps a dedicated forum? Something like the Big shots area? We could set up a sub-forum where these issues are isolated and even begin to track who and how many people we are talking about as 'members' of this new Canyoneering Front. People who are new or anti Bogley could easily click the 'ACA' forum (just a place holder) and check what BOD things are happening, volunteer or fest issues, etc.

[trackrunner]

Another thing,
Have the national association endorse the two forums for canyoneering - Bogley a Yahoo for us USA canyoneers, for private and public discussions. We don't need necessarily 5 forums to confuse noobs. Besides, the #1 goal is to ensure the safety of the canyoneer. And we would want to give them as much information and resources as possible.

would this violate #4 on favoritism from your earlier list. or is that just for no favoritism for good or bad beta?

[bshwakr]

Awesome stuff!

In one post Jman has eliminated many of the hurtles I could see.

I REALLY like all of these ideas.

Really?

[jman]

would this violate #4 on favoritism from your earlier list. or is that just for no favoritism for good or bad beta?

Just applicable to beta. If the national org existed, why not have endorsed forums for discussion? Do you really want to be searching 4 different forums where the same questions are asked over and over? Btw, I have no financial stake in Bogley or any previously mentioned websites.

[jman]

Really?

I know. I was surprised too. I followed Shane's advice of doing the easy things first. Yup, it was easy enough.

[Iceaxe]

I don't believe any of JMAN's thoughts were too early......

If the new organization is going to hi-jack trip reports and beta from existing sources than I'm opposed to it.

If the new organization is going to teach classes to provide a revenue stream at the expense of existing schools than I'm opposed to it. When someone mentions education I assume that to mean teach proper etiquette and ethics. I would also not be opposed to some type a mentor program.

If the new organization is going to sale rope and gear to provide a revenue stream than I'm opposed to it.

If the new organization is going to start guiding to provide a revenue stream than I'm opposed to it.

If the organization is going to become just anther social forum than I'm opposed to it.

If a new organization wants to point to where the information, school and guiding are available I'm all for it.

[jman]

I don't believe any of JMAN's thoughts were too early......

If the new organization is going to hi-jack trip reports and beta from existing sources than I'm opposed to it.

If the new organization is going to teach classes to provide a revenue stream at the expense of existing schools than I'm opposed to it. When someone mentions education I assume that to mean teach proper etiquette and ethics. I would also not be opposed to some type a mentor program.

If the new organization is going to sale rope and gear to provide a revenue stream than I'm opposed to it.

If the new organization is going to start guiding to provide a revenue stream than I'm opposed to it.

If the organization is going to become just anther social forum than I'm opposed to it.

If a new organization wants to point to where the information, school and guiding are available I'm all for it.

Hey! those points are pretty much what we've discusse on a deeper level.

[restrac2000]

Areas where I think overlap with existing "organizations" would be unnecessary and possibly harmful:

1) Technical skills education
2) Commercial business: teaching hard skills, selling equipment, and guiding
3) Recreational rendezvous, unless they incorporate/require a rigorous form of service/outreach/education

I think if a new organization goes into those arenas then we are likely to:

1) Fracture the existing communities
2) Create tensions instead of building collaboration
3) Jeopardize the work regarding access

Phillip

[Felicia]

I don't believe any of JMAN's thoughts were too early......

If the new organization is going to hi-jack trip reports and beta from existing sources than I'm opposed to it.

If the new organization is going to teach classes to provide a revenue stream at the expense of existing schools than I'm opposed to it. When someone mentions education I assume that to mean teach proper etiquette and ethics. I would also not be opposed to some type a mentor program.

If the new organization is going to sale rope and gear to provide a revenue stream than I'm opposed to it.

If the new organization is going to start guiding to provide a revenue stream than I'm opposed to it.

If the organization is going to become just anther social forum than I'm opposed to it.

If a new organization wants to point to where the information, school and guiding are available I'm all for it.

I agree with each of these statements.

Step 1: Create a list for an interim BOD. Pull people from each of the sub-communities for the BOD. Some of these will serve to spring, and the other half will serve to next fall. Plan to have elections before the next canyoneering season swings into high gear as was suggested earlier. Run the election for half the BOD in the spring and the other half in the late fall.

Create a thread for nominations/volunteers that would like to be on the first BOD and post an invite to the other communities? Or, allow the BOD to form behind the scene and be announced?

I'm actually OK with both options as long as there are nominations/volunteers/elections in the near future.


Felicia

[Felicia]

Step 2: BOD, sourcing the communities, creates a Mission Statement and implement such statement.

Step 3: Let the organization grow in the direction that the communities take it within the guidelines of the Mission Statement.

Felicia