Is there any interest in a REAL canyoneering association?

[ratagonia]

couldn't find the egroup. all I got was this message:
"There is no group called canyonorgdiscussion. Please make sure you typed the web address correctly. If you have done so, the group may no longer exis"

Old News. That Yahoo Group was replaced by THIS Bogley sub-group.

Tom

[rcwild]

To clarify, ZAC prefers ACA guide or canyon leader certification in applicants for a guide position. Since JZ, Nick and I all participated in ACA courses, we had an understanding of the lack of rigor in the ACA guide certification program, but JZ and Nick indulged me in supporting the ACA-PRO for it's potential, until Rich and I had a final falling out.

I do not know about the ATS program, but the ACA program was not rigorous enough, in my opinion, to provide an assurance that "they are hiring a competent guide", even in the skill sets included in the ACA curriculum, you know, if it was ever published. It seems like one of the things that makes a certification "true" rather than "faux" is publication of the curriculum and standards for certification. Lacking at the ACA. Although, usually copyright and only offered for a substantial fee, perhaps.

Over the past 12 years, the ACA has conducted dozens of professional guide courses and exams. Average passing rate is around 75%. During the most recent exam, the passing rate was only 25% (2 out of 8 passed).

One exam conducted in Arizona a few years back did lack sufficient rigor. It was conducted during a rendezvous at which Charly Oliver, Dave Black and I were all scheduled to teach and evaluate. Unfortunately, Dave was unable to attend, which left Charly and I scrambling to accommodate two courses and a guides exam at the same time. We could have sent the guide candidates home and apologized to them for the inconvenience, but because the group included Tom Jones, Jonathan Zambella, Nick Wilkes, Jared Hillhouse and two park rangers from Jasper Canada, we decided we could get creative to accommodate them. Charly and I had the candidates teach blocks of our courses as part of their evaluations. We also pulled in Sonny Lawrence to help evaluate.

This one group was not evaluated with the usual rigor of an ACA guides exam. We gave them the benefit of the doubt because of their previous guiding experience and passed all but one of the candidates. A decision we have since come to regret.

[ratagonia]

Over the past 12 years, the ACA has conducted dozens of professional guide courses and exams. Average passing rate is around 75%. During the most recent exam, the passing rate was only 25% (2 out of 8 passed).

One exam conducted in Arizona a few years back did lack sufficient rigor. It was conducted during a rendezvous at which Charly Oliver, Dave Black and I were all scheduled to teach and evaluate. Unfortunately, Dave was unable to attend, which left Charly and I scrambling to accommodate two courses and a guides exam at the same time. We could have sent the guide candidates home and apologized to them for the inconvenience, but because the group included Tom Jones, Jonathan Zambella, Nick Wilkes, Jared Hillhouse and two park rangers from Jasper Canada, we decided we could get creative to accommodate them. Charly and I had the candidates teach blocks of our courses as part of their evaluations. We also pulled in Sonny Lawrence to help evaluate.

This one group was not evaluated with the usual rigor of an ACA guides exam. We gave them the benefit of the doubt because of their previous guiding experience and passed all but one of the candidates. A decision we have since come to regret.

At that same event, I believe we talked about what it would take to provide a truly rigorous guide exam/evaluation. You indicated that in Europe, the guide exam is made by an examiner with no prior relationship with the aspirant. Something very difficult in the USA, and specifically via the ACA.

I think you also reinforce my point, perhaps not previously explicitly made, that the Exam and Standard are "written", so that the process is as Objective as possible, rather than being Subjective. Thus, in a European organization, the result of that engagement would have been "I am sorry, we cannot run the exam due to unfortunate circumstances" rather than "I know you guys are all good, so I will waive the requirement for an actual Exam". In this case, while we were all in a position to do well on a rigorous exam, my subjective evaluation is that your desire (and out desire) to contribute to the ACA-Pro division may have contributed to the decision to "bring us into the fold".

My belief is that the primary requirement to produce a rigorous result consistently is that the certifying body be an Association, rather than an individual. As an individual who is operating as a certifying body, Rich, perhaps you allow aspects of your relationships with people, good or bad, to get in the way of the Objective part of the process. And I certainly allow it to get in the way of any desire I have to maintain an ACA Certification.

Tom

[Bo_Beck]

My Thoughts:

Having created a non-profit organization, S.U.C.C. "Southern Utah Climbers Coalition", several years ago provided us with a platform to gain, disseminate, and react on members opinions. That platform stands as a voice represented by interested climbers. It has successfully gained pieces and bits of threatened access on both public and private lands. It has created a community of climbers and non-climbers alike. The only instruction given by the organization is the correct behavior needed (as agreed upon with land management) to retain access to determined areas.

As for certification?.....Why does an organization need to hand out certifications?....Does that mean soon I will not be able to hike a particular canyon because I don't have a certification? I've personally been involved for almost 16 years on a SAR Team. Hundreds and hundreds of hours of training. I don't have a certification, but I do have certificates of completion of courses, Rigging for Rescue", "Ropes that Rescue", "Search Management" Coconino County SAR Compass, Map and GPS", "ITRS" , "Grand Canyon Swiftwater Rescue", etc...etc. These certificates may give me a better chance to gain employment with another SAR Team, but certainly are not requirements. My personal belief is that if a "Business" wants to create a syllabus for "Certification" of their course, that would be awesome! Also my belief is that an "Organization" ought to focus on issues that relate to access and the behaviors that relate to continued access.

[restrac2000]

My Thoughts:

Having created a non-profit organization, S.U.C.C. "Southern Utah Climbers Coalition", several years ago provided us with a platform to gain, disseminate, and react on members opinions. That platform stands as a voice represented by interested climbers. It has successfully gained pieces and bits of threatened access on both public and private lands. It has created a community of climbers and non-climbers alike. The only instruction given by the organization is the correct behavior needed (as agreed upon with land management) to retain access to determined areas.

As for certification?.....Why does an organization need to hand out certifications?....Does that mean soon I will not be able to hike a particular canyon because I don't have a certification? I've personally been involved for almost 16 years on a SAR Team. Hundreds and hundreds of hours of training. I don't have a certification, but I do have certificates of completion of courses, Rigging for Rescue", "Ropes that Rescue", "Search Management" Coconino County SAR Compass, Map and GPS", "ITRS" , "Grand Canyon Swiftwater Rescue", etc...etc. These certificates may give me a better chance to gain employment with another SAR Team, but certainly are not requirements. My personal belief is that if a "Business" wants to create a syllabus for "Certification" of their course, that would be awesome! Also my belief is that an "Organization" ought to focus on issues that relate to access and the behaviors that relate to continued access.

Would you be willing to share of SUCC's files and history, Bo? I think they could benefit the canyoneering community. I have done a superficial google search and only came up with the Crawdad release form. Maybe a write up and sharing the bylaws?

Phillip

[Brewha]

I could see it as a good thing for guides, instructors and such.