View Poll Results: Is a canyoneering association needed? If so, what should it's focus be?

Voters
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  • Skills Workshops

    29 49.15%
  • Environmental Education

    21 35.59%
  • Access Issues

    41 69.49%
  • Advocacy and Lobbying

    31 52.54%
  • Organize regional gatherings

    31 52.54%
  • Venue for networking

    26 44.07%
  • Source for canyon beta, forums, and trip reports

    16 27.12%
  • a new organization is unnecessary

    13 22.03%
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Thread: Is there any interest in a REAL canyoneering association?

  1. #1

    Is there any interest in a REAL canyoneering association?

    I'd like to gauge the interest of members here on Bogley to see if there truly is any interest in creating a true canyoneering association, one with a democratically elected board.

    I'd also like to hear what people think this board should have as it's goals and aims, and if it truly would be beneficial in any way. We've heard a lot over the past few months from those who have been in the sport for a long time, but I'd like to hear what others think.

    Myself, I think a true association would be great for the community, even though we have bits of loose associations available in an a la carte fashion already.

    I'm basically going to copy the options from the ACA thread, since obviously we have a very different demographic of people who participate over here. And since the picture of what the ACA truly is has become somewhat more clear, I wonder if there is really any serious interest in creating a new entity.

    Feel free to add options in the comments if the poll is not comprehensive enough.

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  3. #2
    Based on my experiences with the "caving" community. I would say I have zero interest.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  4. #3
    I sent a note around this morning gauging interest from a few people. Several have replied expressing interest in at least having the discussion. I was thinking about starting an egroup to discuss it since several of them do not read forums. Perhaps have the discussion both here and there? Point them here? Any thoughts?

    M

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    Based on my experiences with the "caving" community. I would say I have zero interest.
    This
    Tacoma Said - If Scott he asks you to go on a hike, ask careful questions like "Is it going to be on a trail?" "What are the chances it will kill me?" etc. Maybe "Will there be sack-biting ants along the way?"

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mdd View Post
    I sent a note around this morning gauging interest from a few people. Several have replied expressing interest in at least having the discussion. I was thinking about starting an egroup to discuss it since several of them do not read forums. Perhaps have the discussion both here and there? Point them here? Any thoughts?

    M
    if they want to participate here, that would be excellent. however, i know there are plenty of folks who won't participate here because they don't like the atmosphere on bogley, or they find the forums annoying to read (prefer egroups).

    i personally can go either way. you'd almost certainly get a different character of responses from an egroup than you would on bogley. i think the biggest crowd of "casual" canyoneers hangs out on here though.

    in short, i dunno...

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    Based on my experiences with the "caving" community. I would say I have zero interest.
    being totally ignorant of the caving community, i'd be interested in hearing details and how it would apply to this situation.

  8. #7
    Canyon Wrangler canyoncaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcricket View Post
    Based on my experiences with the "caving" community. I would say I have zero interest.
    Based on my experiences with the caving community (which I have been a part of for the last 18 years), I would say that canyoneers could benefit greatly from the kind of networking, skills workshops, safety information, publications, and institutional knowledge that cavers share. The caving community feels like a family, while the current state of the canyoneering community feels more like an acrimonius competition.

  9. #8
    Basically it's a bunch of elitest pricks who hold back all and any info, and limit trips to "their friends" that they deem worthy using variables that they made up. All in the name of keeping info private to "protect the caves" from harm. I think having the canyoneering community so decentralized benefits it greatly in that no one is "the boss" and it's real easy to get picked up for a trip with the different "camps". Once you start a centralized authority dictating rules the community will far apart IMO and you'll just have a bunch a canyon douche's left who like to punch out a noob who doesn't want to carry ropes.

    As a small example, take the helmet law for instance. I go with groups where helmets are encouraged but not required. And I go with some groups where a helmet is required or they won't take you. Pretty easy to qualify for either group. But what if a group wouldn't pick you up unless you had a helmet, ascending gear, knew how to tie a clove hitch, stone knots, figure 8, water knot, and the devious sheep shank. And you were also required to have done a half dozen canyons before they would pick you up? And if they were "caught" taking you into a canyon, they would be shunned by the entire group, invites for them would be no longer forthcoming. That's pretty much the place caving is at right now.

    And these rules can pretty much be applied to all the aspects of a group where people differ in opinions. Just using that as a small example. I see no benefits to having a REAL canyon association, none. And I feel if one were put into place it would devastate the community.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  10. #9
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    I don't think a new association should be involved in teaching, guide certification, or guiding. the academy and ACGA guides or other outfitters like ZAC, Canyon Country Guides, etc will handle that.

    my favorite parts participating in the ACA events were:

    1. meeting new partners & networking at rendezvous
    2. free natural anchors & basic skills safety workshops allowing people to learn how construct/inspect anchors and not rely too much on placing bolts.

    In the access issues in Zion, Arches, Grand canyon I've wanted a coordinated group to lobby for our access.

    the community already has three diverse forums. no need to start a new one.

    the other question is will members of the community put in enough volunteer time to properly run it.

    just my 2 cents

  11. #10
    I don't really run into any problems(other than the fun kind!) in the canyons, so my initial response was gonna be that an association would be unnecessary.

    However I know the permit system in Zion is messed up and there was a fuss about a Moab system, so maybe an association that dealt with access issues would be helpful.

    Also, there are plenty of great resources for canyon safety information and proper canyoneering etiquette and unfortunately there's also lots of human erosion, litter at campsites and avoidable accidents, so I'm thinkin' that establishing another place to echo these sentiments/ distribute information can't hurt.

  12. #11
    I've been giving this a lot of thought lately..... I'm not sure if an umbrella organization is required. But I'm interested in being involved in any discussions regarding a possible future organization and its direction.

    If an organization is deemed necessary I see it being more of a "Guidance Council", similar to the old ZCC (for those that were around back than). A group that can watch out for the general interests of canyoneers and rally support for items like permits, access or the new Arches management plan when required. Such a council would not dictate to the membership, but simply provide easy to understand information and a suggested course of action. This allows members to support a particular issue in a manner they deem appropriate.

    As I see it the majority of canyoneers just want to have fun and enjoy canyoneering. But they are willing to rally and provide support as a group for items they deem important when the need arises.

    The Guidance Council would only require a simple website and a mailing list you could sign up for. Similar to the old ZCC. And I don't see a Guidance Council becoming a hugh work load for any one person or group. Most of the information gathering an distribution is already being done by several individuals that take an interest or concern in these types of matters.

    I would expect the Guidance Council to be run by a large and varied democratically elected board of directors.

    I don't see an additional forum being required. It would just dilute the waters and you can easily get a message to most canyoneers by a simple mailing list and/or posting to one of the current 2 1/2 forums (I counted the ACA site as 1/2 because of lack of traffic and you never know who is allowed to post).

    High quality schooling, guiding and beta are currently available in many forms and should not be of concern to a Guidance Council. The good schools, guides and beta remain and the weak are quickly thinned from the herd.

    I don't see a need for a Guidance Council to provide rendezvous or fests. The current organizations and forums do a nice job of that already. If someone wants to organize a social event they are welcome to do it on Bogley, and I know the Yahoo group has also support individuals organizing social events in the past. There is also a rumor that "Tom-Fests" will be starting back up, which were always a great time.

    A Guidance Council should provide recommendations for proper technic and ethics with regard to environmental matters (rope grooves, erosion, etc).

    Anyhoo..... that's my 2 cents.

  13. #12
    Yay for Tom-Fests

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I've been giving this a lot of thought lately..... I'm not sure if an umbrella organization is required. But I'm interested in being involved in any discussions regarding a possible future organization and its direction.

    If an organization is deemed necessary I see it being more of a "Guidance Council", similar to the old ZCC (for those that were around back than). A group that can watch out for the general interests of canyoneers and rally support for items like permits, access or the new Arches management plan when required. Such a council would not dictate to the membership, but simply provide easy to understand information and a suggested course of action. This allows members to support a particular issue in a manner they deem appropriate.

    As I see it the majority of canyoneers just want to have fun and enjoy canyoneering. But they are willing to rally and provide support as a group for items they deem important when the need arises.

    The Guidance Council would only require a simple website and a mailing list you could sign up for. Similar to the old ZCC. And I don't see a Guidance Council becoming a hugh work load for any one person or group. Most of the information gathering an distribution is already being done by several individuals that take an interest or concern in these types of matters.

    I would expect the Guidance Council to be run by a large and varied democratically elected board of directors.

    I don't see an additional forum being required. It would just dilute the waters and you can easily get a message to most canyoneers by a simple mailing list and/or posting to one of the current 2 1/2 forums (I counted the ACA site as 1/2 because of lack of traffic and you never know who is allowed to post).

    High quality schooling, guiding and beta are currently available in many forms and should not be of concern to a Guidance Council. The good schools, guides and beta remain and the weak are quickly thinned from the herd.

    I don't see a need for a Guidance Council to provide rendezvous or fests. The current organizations and forums do a nice job of that already. If someone wants to organize a social event they are welcome to do it on Bogley, and I know the Yahoo group has also support individuals organizing social events in the past. There is also a rumor that "Tom-Fests" will be starting back up, which were always a great time.

    A Guidance Council should provide recommendations for proper technic and ethics with regard to environmental matters (rope grooves, erosion, etc).

    Anyhoo..... that's my 2 cents.

    I've started to reply and give my 2 cents a few times now but none of them seemed to come out right in Black and white so they were deleted with the intentions to try and put thoughts together at a later time.

    I no longer have to worry about my "writers block" thanks to Iceaxe. I don't think I could've said it any better.

    As a noob to the politics of canyoneering but not a noob to the canyons, my 2 cents would mirror the above post. I love the canyons but dont live in Utah nor do I have the option to be at every organized event or every land management meeting I would certainly appreciate someone taking my opinion to them and speaking for me, or at least speaking for the majority,( me and the majority may not always agree).

    With regular information flowing through one of the "21/2 forums" or a simple mailing list, I will be able to stay informed. If I really feel that strong about an issue I will arrange to take personal involvement and speak up or be at these meetings myself.

    I agree the BOD should be a diverse group, democratically elected and there should be some dues process by members to cover costs of any such mailings.

    Thanks for puttin' it together for me Iceaxe.

  15. #14
    Making and running such an organization is going to be nearly a thankless task. I say nearly because I think that anyone reading these threads understands the importance and necessity of such an organization. Some hardy soul or group has to step up to make this happen. When this occurs, the community will crystalize behind this effort. I for one will support the new organization. I suspect that many will do the same. I suspect these threads are critical for developing the necessary interest to push forward to build such an organization.

    Ken

  16. #15
    i don't think there will be any shortage of people willing to make this happen, if we can decide if it is truly worth making happen. i also believe the forums will be redundant, but i do see value in more organized fests, social gatherings, service projects, pro-active measures to interact with land agencies, etc...

    there are many people with the knowledge, passion, and commitment to make it happen, as long as a community is willing to support such a cause, especially now that it is clear that the ACA's mission is not representative of the community.

  17. #16
    It would probably feel very much like a thankless task. But with that said it seems like some type of organization should be in place and would probably be leaned on more than anyone may admit right now.

    I don't want to sound like I only want to sit back and let someone else do all the work, I would be more than happy to dedicate time and effort into such committee as requested or needed. I would even do it without a thank you.

    No offense : (and I say that knowing someone will take offense) maybe there is just to many "walls" built up and to much "history" between some of those most involved right now. Maybe the entire community could benefit from some fresh eyes working closely with those who have dedicated so much time and effort over the years to progress this sport to it's current state, but less the "history" and bad blood. Even though said bad blood seems to be limited to a single individual or single group.

    Just a new guy to the community's opinion, looking in from the outside.

    If I'm too new here and don't know what the hell I'm talking, about please feel free to let me know. ( I know you will ) that's why I love this site!

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs View Post
    i don't think there will be any shortage of people willing to make this happen, if we can decide if it is truly worth making happen. i also believe the forums will be redundant, but i do see value in more organized fests, social gatherings, service projects, pro-active measures to interact with land agencies, etc...

    there are many people with the knowledge, passion, and commitment to make it happen, as long as a community is willing to support such a cause, especially now that it is clear that the ACA's mission is not representative of the community.
    Support. I may have slightly different preferences but I would support a democratic association solely on the importance of that element. I don't need to have control over specific outcomes, I just need to know I have real input to affect change.

    I would love to see an organization that interacts with agencies. It may not need to advocate specific outcomes but it would be helpful to have a reliable, direct line to the government agencies that create relevant policies. If it provided detailed, specific information regarding policy and options for stakeholder involvement than that would progress.

    It may be "thankless" but I know firsthand that many people are willing to help. The email and sideband activity the last 6 weeks has been robust.

    Phillip

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Bshelton View Post
    It would probably feel very much like a thankless task. But with that said it seems like some type of organization should be in place and would probably be leaned on more than anyone may admit right now.

    I don't want to sound like I only want to sit back and let someone else do all the work, I would be more than happy to dedicate time and effort into such committee as requested or needed. I would even do it without a thank you.

    No offense : (and I say that knowing someone will take offense) maybe there is just to many "walls" built up and to much "history" between some of those most involved right now. Maybe the entire community could benefit from some fresh eyes working closely with those who have dedicated so much time and effort over the years to progress this sport to it's current state, but less the "history" and bad blood. Even though said bad blood seems to be limited to a single individual or single group.

    Just a new guy to the community's opinion, looking in from the outside.

    If I'm too new here and don't know what the hell I'm talking, about please feel free to let me know. ( I know you will ) that's why I love this site!
    Agreed.
    I would support new blood. After a decade it may be time to help develop or encourage new leadership in the community.

    Phillip

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bshelton View Post
    If I'm too new here and don't know what the hell I'm talking, about please feel free to let me know. ( I know you will ) that's why I love this site!
    there is a lot of history, no doubt. and some bad blood between the players. i can't speak for anyone but myself, but your perspective is exactly what i personally am interested in gauging. we know all the opinions of most of the "veterans" already. kinda seems like a fresh start might be able to mend some of those fractures and provide a foundation for an association that is of benefit to the community at large... or maybe not. the more input there is from a wider cross-section of the community, the better.

  21. #20
    I would certainly be up for increased involvement and be honored to be a part of the future and direction canyoneering evolves.

    I'm sure there are more people out there like me but, I have found ( I manage 160 employees - have 4 managers and 9 supervisors that report to me) most people only want to sit back and point out problems, but very few are actually willing to sacrifice their time and put forth effort to solve them.

    I only assume and speak from my experience in life that the canyoneering community is probably not immune to this type of thinking.

    This is probably exactly why this "association" or lack thereof is in it's current state. Those with strong opinions and even more dedication surfaced to the top years back (probably out of necessity, and thanks to forward thinking) to form whatever they could to protect and advance this sport. This was probably done initially with the beat of intentions with the "sport" in mind. But with all strong oppinioned personality's eventually they clash and the original gets lost someplace in the minutia.

    I don't think anyone who drives out to a canyon today has room to do anything but thank those individuals who came before us and cut the path to where we are. Good bad or indifferent those differences of opinion's out there are owned by those who were actually involved.

    IMHO the community needs the experienced and knowledgeable but it needs them to work open-mindedly and jointly with some fresh eyes.

    If for no other reason, every successful organization has a succession plan.

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