Beetles Killing Tamarisk

[oldno7]

I first thought they said the beetle had to defoliate a tree 3 years in a row to be successful, this article now says 4-5.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=17525823&nid=1012

[restrac2000]

Seems like the project has been a success thus far. Lower Desolation Canyon is a different place now, and they didn't have a direct release there.

I am all for science based management, but this comment seems over-confident: "There

[Sandstone Addiction]

Can you just imagine all the sandy beaches at Lake Powell that will be available once the tamaracks are gone? And just think, you might be able to actually get to the river banks on the Colorado near Moab without a death wish. Wow, you might even be able to see the river from the road...

Sounds too good to be true, so I'll believe it when I see it.

[peakbaggers]

I live in Grand Junction where they first released some of these critters and frequently travel to Moab where there's been a lot of defoliation. It's great to get rid of these trees, however, in some areas where new native growth is coming in, you may not like the results. I've seen stands of willows several feet high and more dense than the tamarisks. They're as difficult or more difficult to pass through than the tamarisks. In addition, an article released in our area a year or two ago showed the results of a new study that found that the tamarisks didn't really use any more water than the native species - willows & cottonwoods. Water consumption was one of the main reasons used to argue for the elimination of the tamarisks. All this makes me wonder if we will be any better off when it's all said & done. And there's still the ever present risk of when there's practically no tamarisks left, what are these bettles going to turn to to feed on. Maybe their population will just naturally shrink - maybe it won't and like a plague of locusts, they'll go in search of a new food source. Never say "never."

[restrac2000]

I am still a firm believer in the prioritizing of native over invasive. The natives will likely invade at higher than "ideal" human levels until we see a more aggressive hydrodynamic regime. Thats not likely ever to happen again in much of the west.

I wonder about the post-tamarisk beetle as well. Its seems likely that a small portion of the population will have an ability to eat (maybe to a lower nutritional or energetic level) native plants and then natural selection kicks in. Scary thing about messing with inverts is there generation time is so quick=we'll know the answer either way pretty soon,

Like the outcome thus far.

Phillip

[jb]

Can you just imagine all the sandy beaches at Lake Powell that will be available once the tamaracks are gone?

Kelsey's opinions nothwithstanding, there are no tamaracks in Utah, and especially not at Lake Powell. There is tamarisk. Tamaracks are something else entirely (a kind of larch--which is a genus of deciduous conifers in the pine family--though the word is sometimes applied to larches in general). Sorry, it's a pet peeve.

[BLUEberryBOB]

The last time I checked the Chinese Carp that were brought here to 'kill something in the water' ended up taking over our waterways.
Just leave it alone, nature will kill it off eventually, bring them beetles here and we're going to have 2 problems instead of one.

These eco-nuts are... nuts.

[restrac2000]

The last time I checked the Chinese Carp that were brought here to 'kill something in the water' ended up taking over our waterways.
Just leave it alone, nature will kill it off eventually, bring them beetles here and we're going to have 2 problems instead of one.

These eco-nuts are... nuts.

"Econuts" had little to do with this particular case, this was done by highly educated professors and land managers. There is data to support their efforts.

The "Asian Carp" is actually a grouping 8 different species who all have very different environmental histories. The Silver Carp is the one most people are familiar with recently. It is believed they escaped from aquaculture farms multiple times over the last 2 decades. I am not aware that they were intentionally introduced for biocontrol.

The "Common Carp" was actually introduced more than a century ago well before our understanding of ecology and biology was nuanced. They were introduced as a food source, managers thinking America would take to eating them like Asians and Europeans have. They are low on the food web and therefor "cheap" meat. Americans don't like to eat carp though.

All of them have messed up diverse ecosystems and are great examples of the issues of invasive species. But I don't know many folks that could be honestly labeled "econuts" that are remotely related to these issues.

[Sandstone Addiction]

[QUOTE=BLUEberryBOB;475383]Just leave it alone, nature will kill it off eventually

How long will that take?

I've been waiting for 44 years and it aint happened yet!

If you can't tell already, I hate 'em --a lot more than little tiny beetles.

[BLUEberryBOB]

[QUOTE=Sandstone Addiction;475429]

Just leave it alone, nature will kill it off eventually

How long will that take?

I've been waiting for 44 years and it aint happened yet!

If you can't tell already, I hate 'em --a lot more than little tiny beetles.

Until those 'tiny beetles' turn in to voracious little bastards and eat all your fruit crops!

[Sandstone Addiction]

[QUOTE=BLUEberryBOB;475430]

Until those 'tiny beetles' turn in to voracious little bastards and eat all your fruit crops!

I agree that there are risks involved, but something has to be done.

I mean, have you driven along the Potash Road down river from Moab? It's a slickrock wall on one side and a tamarisk wall on the other--you can only see the river in a few places...just sayin.

[ratagonia]

I agree that there are risks involved, but something has to be done.

I mean, have you driven along the Potash Road down river from Moab? It's a slickrock wall on one side and a tamarisk wall on the other--you can only see the river in a few places...just sayin.

And???

Sorry, I just don't see the connection. Why "something has to be done"???

Eco-systems change. They don't conform to human ideals. They do their own thing. "God's will" if you wish. Perhaps you are suggesting the BLM mow them all down and plant nice hedges so the view of the river for the Potash truck drivers will be so much more orderly?

That said, yeah, I view the Tamarisk as a pest. Glad to see something controlling its population. I for one would not be surprised if the bug eventually figures out how to survive on something else. Fruit trees seems an unlikely target for it, however.

Tom

[restrac2000]

From http://www.discovermoab.com/tamarisk.htm : (frown....not citations or author name)

Will these beetles eat other types of vegetation?
Extensive testing was undertaken and some non-target feeding was seen on Frankenia. There are four native species in the southwest that are related to tamarisk/saltcedar but not closely related. They are in a different plant family (Frankeniaceae) with tamarisk being in the plant family (Tamaricaceae) but both plants are in the same plant order (Tamarricales). Studies suggest that the larvae could feed and develop on Frankenia but the studies also showed the adult beetles were much less attracted to this plant, and they laid eggs much less frequently on Frankenia than on tamarisk. The second generation of beetles was even less likely to lay eggs on the Frankenia.

[Sandstone Addiction]

And???

Sorry, I just don't see the connection. Why "something has to be done"???

Eco-systems change. They don't conform to human ideals. They do their own thing. "God's will" if you wish. Perhaps you are suggesting the BLM mow them all down and plant nice hedges so the view of the river for the Potash truck drivers will be so much more orderly?

That said, yeah, I view the Tamarisk as a pest. Glad to see something controlling its population. I for one would not be surprised if the bug eventually figures out how to survive on something else. Fruit trees seems an unlikely target for it, however.

Tom

It's only my opinion that "something has to be done", but they're here because of humans, don't you think it's our duty to get them under control? If we have the means?


I do like the hedge idea! Maybe privet.

[restrac2000]

For those wanting to really dork out:

http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/dspace/bitst...ND44280697.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/5s8ks7n

Seems that only one "non-target" plant has thus far been identified, F. Salina, or the Alkali Heath. Haven't found anything relating to willows, cottonwoods, etc. It seems likely that the evolutionary adaptations of the beetle species, Diorhabda elongata, would lead to a higher probability of "attack" on plants related or similar to salt cedar, i.e. the aforementioned heath. Seems very unlikely that the beetles will target other plants until the next food source runs out.

Phillip

[oldno7]

Phillip
Please don't limit yourself to the Rich is a liar thread. Your knowledge and insite is welcomed.
Often we will see from differing perpectives, but I respect yours.

bogley is only a bad place if you're competing against it.

[ratagonia]

It's only my opinion that "something has to be done", but they're here because of humans, don't you think it's our duty to get them under control? If we have the means?

I do like the hedge idea! Maybe privet.

Duty to whom?

(I personally can see some duty, I am just wondering which duty YOU see, that makes it compelling).

T

[restrac2000]

It's only my opinion that "something has to be done", but they're here because of humans, don't you think it's our duty to get them under control? If we have the means?


I do like the hedge idea! Maybe privet.

Hehe....

My concern is that there is a lot we still don't know so the idea of ecological "restoration" has always seemed a bit lofty. Especially when involving the addition of an invasive biocontrol. I like the outcomes of this one so far but the long view is highly uncertain.

Can't believe I am going to use a Rumsfeld quote, highly unusual for me:

"“[T]here are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know."

Science-based application is better than no foundation but it can still push us far into the realms of the unknown. Outcomes are still a major gamble. But I agree that sometimes action is better than inaction.

Phillip

[trackrunner]

There is an easy solution to get rid of the beetles.

Release some lizards from Asia to kill the beetles.

But you may ask: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by
lizards?

No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes.
They'll wipe out the lizards.

But you may ask: But aren't the snakes even worse?

Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of
gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

But you may ask: But then we're stuck with gorillas!

No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the
gorillas simply freeze to death.

[ilipichicuma]

There is an easy solution to get rid of the beetles.

Release some lizards from Asia to kill the beetles.

But you may ask: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by
lizards?

No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes.
They'll wipe out the lizards.

But you may ask: But aren't the snakes even worse?

Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of
gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

But you may ask: But then we're stuck with gorillas!

No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the
gorillas simply freeze to death.

This plan is genius. I say we do that.