Rangers Find Injured Man Crawling Across Desert Near Bluejohn

[Iceaxe]

Many, MANY people go out by themselves without informing mommy.

You can't fix stupid....

[ratagonia]

You can't fix stupid....

Especially when it don't need fixing.

T

[Alex]

CNN had a special on this dude.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...btv?&hpt=hp_c2

[BruteForce]

Despite the many dramatized news stories, I still think he went into that canyon TRYING to get his moment on TV (15 minutes of fame).

[Dr. Nebz]

The golden rule is "Don't Frak up and Die".

Many, MANY people go out by themselves without informing mommy.

I am so happy you have a great backup plan. My backup plan is to take care of myself.

You are always playing with Death. putting various plans in place might make you feel more responsible. I'm not against it, I'm just saying - it is an illusion of safety.



Tom

I never said there were any guarantees. I said that the golden rule is you always let someone know where you are going and when you plan to return. Unless you have no one in your life that you care about, this is the right thing to do. Because if you come home in a body bag, it does not hurt you, it hurts the people who love you. So do what you want, it makes no difference to me, but respect is respect, and putting sorrow on someone because you wanna act like you have big ass balls is stupid and disrespectful IMO.

And stop with your insinuation that I was using the word "mommy." I used the word "Mom," (reading is fundamental) and that is only when me and the wife head out together.

[Dr. Nebz]

You can't fix stupid....

Yes you can, its called birth control.

[wasatchghost]

Despite the many dramatized news stories, I still think he went into that canyon TRYING to get his moment on TV (15 minutes of fame).

My thoughts exactly. The main message I got from 127h was "don't be an idiot and wander off into the desert alone." If that movie really is what inspired this guy to go to bluejohn, he would have had to make a conscious decision not to tell anyone.

[denaliguide]

The golden rule is "Don't Frak up and Die".

Many, MANY people go out by themselves without informing mommy.

I am so happy you have a great backup plan. My backup plan is to take care of myself.

You are always playing with Death. putting various plans in place might make you feel more responsible. I'm not against it, I'm just saying - it is an illusion of safety.



Tom

x2

i do solo trips and often don't tell anyone where i am going because even i don't know exactly where i will be from one day to the next. would be kind of pointless to put in a hiking plan if i can't stick to it. and my mom doesn't really want to know what i am doing anyway. she will look at the photos after though.

just like tom said "don't frak up and die". that's not just the golden rule, it's the only rule. forget the spot, forget the "ten essentials", forget to register at the trailhead and take a chance. personal responsibility is one of the things that is lacking these days. in the past it was common for someone to go off for month at a time without knowing what was over the next hill. sometimes they came back and sometimes they did not. that's just how life was.

i just enjoy running through the woods without that safety net that some can't leave home without. i chose to rely on experience and judgment (not always good by the way) if i die in the woods do i worry about how everyone will feel that i have left? not really, after all i'll be dead.

[Don]

Too much 'do it my way' in the world (and on this board). Some may feel it's safer to leave detailed trip plans (I usually do), but it's not a 'rule', golden or any other color.
I totally get the appeal of heading out without a plan. It's the best way to experience something you weren't expecting.
Go out and explore and have fun. Do it your way. And understand that if you f*ck it up you'll probably catch hell on the boards. But then again, how much does the website effect your real life? So maybe f*ck it up anyway and enjoy the show...

[ghawk]

how much does the website effect your real life? So maybe f*ck it up anyway and enjoy the show...

Amid your not so so cleverly disguised profanity you also used effect improperly. You affect something but have an effect on something. That said, you do have the right to do what you will but realize that every time one of these highly publicized rescues happen more restrictions can and eventually will be placed on our access and that does have an effect on the canyoneering community

[jwurst]

I normally leave a plan when going out without the kids. I have certain responsibilities with regard to them until they become independent and I can't fulfill those obligations if I'm dead in a canyon. I usually have a pretty long list of options for where we might be. First step to rescue: find the car.

But when we all go out together I tend to be a bit more cavalier. If we all get trapped and die together then I don't have any more obligations.

[Iceaxe]

I just find it interesting that someone who preaches helmets to the extent of ridiculous, doesn't also preach having a check-in.... it seems hypercritical to me.

In the great world of safety I'd rate having a check-in as more important than wearing a helmet.... YMMV

As to how much safety a person wishes to execute I consider that a personal thing....

[Cirrus2000]

But when we all go out together I tend to be a bit more cavalier. If we all get trapped and die together then I don't have any more obligations.

Love me some dark humor.

I also do a lot of solo trips. I'm very careful when I'm solo, but I love the feel of being out there on my own. I always leave details on where I am, what I'm doing, and when I'll be in touch. But I totally get the appeal in not doing so. (Yes, I know that the last 'sentence' I wrote was actually a sentence fragment, being only a subordinate clause, but it was used for effect.)

There can be repercussions when someone doing their own thing screws up, but as a society we have to find a balance between a mollycoddling, helicopter parent type of government interference, and personal freedoms and responsibilities. The guy in this story messed up, and it could have cost him dearly, but I totally defend his right to do what he did. The big dummy.

[ratagonia]

I just find it interesting that someone who preaches helmets to the extent of ridiculous, doesn't also preach having a check-in.... it seems hypercritical to me.

In the great world of safety I'd rate having a check-in as more important than wearing a helmet.... YMMV

As to how much safety a person wishes to execute I consider that a personal thing....

A check-in plan makes you safer? Seems like the opposite - people think a check-in plan makes them safer, rather than taking responsibility for keeping themselves safe when out there - like, wearing a helmet, and knowing what you are doing.

Jus' sayin'.

Tom

[ghawk]

A check-in plan makes you safer? Seems like the opposite - people think a check-in plan makes them safer, rather than taking responsibility for keeping themselves safe when out there - like, wearing a helmet, and knowing what you are doing.

Jus' sayin'.

Tom

Really? I do whatever I can to make sure I am in the safest situation possible. I'm putting myself in an unpredictable environment that can change very quickly, so I will make sure those things I can control are taken care of. That includes wearing a helmet, not going alone, letting someone know my plan in case the unexpected occurs and I'm stuck, having good beta and keeping up with current canyon conditions, checking my gear regularly and replacing old worn out stuff, learning and practicing new techniques and using new tools effectively, and not being stupid. I think all of those are important and ensure a safer experience. I respect the right of people to use less safety measures if they choose, but I feel that having a check in plan is one of the many things I do to be safe and is not a way to get out of "taking responsibility for keeping.. [myself] safe when out there".

[mattandersao]

I just find it interesting that someone who preaches helmets to the extent of ridiculous, doesn't also preach having a check-in.... it seems hypercritical to me.

In the great world of safety I'd rate having a check-in as more important than wearing a helmet.... YMMV

As to how much safety a person wishes to execute I consider that a personal thing....

ZZZZZING! Hold on to your seats folks I feel this thread may turn into the next one to be locked or deleted by the moderators! :)

[ratagonia]

Really? I do whatever I can to make sure I am in the safest situation possible. I'm putting myself in an unpredictable environment that can change very quickly, so I will make sure those things I can control are taken care of. That includes wearing a helmet, not going alone, letting someone know my plan in case the unexpected occurs and I'm stuck, having good beta and keeping up with current canyon conditions, checking my gear regularly and replacing old worn out stuff, learning and practicing new techniques and using new tools effectively, and not being stupid. I think all of those are important and ensure a safer experience. I respect the right of people to use less safety measures if they choose, but I feel that having a check in plan is one of the many things I do to be safe and is not a way to get out of "taking responsibility for keeping.. [myself] safe when out there".

For you, Gavin, I am sure it is not.

For some, the way to make themselves "safer", they think, is to carry a "SPOT". That chunk of money would be better spent taking a course, learning skills by instruction, but this is rarely in the running. Carrying "more gear" makes us safer. The noobs in Larry carried 600 feet of rope and webbing for 4 x 100 foot rappels. In their case, carrying a SPOT may have saved a life, or at least a limb, but carrying less gear, and knowing what they were doing, would have been a better choice.

And for me, I live alone, so there is no natural person for me to inform where I am. I also go out with many options, rarely with a well-defined schedule or objective. So I do not think it is a good idea for me to set up a program that I cannot keep.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I just find it interesting that someone who preaches helmets to the extent of ridiculous, doesn't also preach having a check-in.... it seems hypercritical to me.

Perhaps you meant hypocritical? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite

I am hypercritical about people wearing helmets.

Tom

[mattandersao]

And for me, I live alone, so there is no natural person for me to inform where I am. I also go out with many options, rarely with a well-defined schedule or objective. So I do not think it is a good idea for me to set up a program that I cannot keep.
Tom

I think all of us deviate depending on the circumstances but wouldnt it be in everyone's best interest of letting someone know the general area you intend to be exploring? I mean lets say that some hardcore adventurer named, I dont know "Tom" on one of his adventures gets pinned by a boulder hiking solo. Eventually a coworker notices his absence and calls the police. Everyone knows "Tom" is the "emperor of canyoneering" and guess he is in a canyon somewhere. SAR gets involved and searches half the state for his vehicle at a trailhead. Eventually after countless hours they find his vehicle near say blue john. Then a week later SAR finds him armless with a tourniquet keeping him from bleeding out...and.... what if "Tom" had just told one person that "Tom" would be in that general area, maybe that saves hours and hours of time and "Tom's" arm?? No??

[ghawk]

For you, Gavin, I am sure it is not.

For some, the way to make themselves "safer", they think, is to carry a "SPOT". That chunk of money would be better spent taking a course, learning skills by instruction, but this is rarely in the running. Carrying "more gear" makes us safer. The noobs in Larry carried 600 feet of rope and webbing for 4 x 100 foot rappels. In their case, carrying a SPOT may have saved a life, or at least a limb, but carrying less gear, and knowing what they were doing, would have been a better choice.

And for me, I live alone, so there is no natural person for me to inform where I am. I also go out with many options, rarely with a well-defined schedule or objective. So I do not think it is a good idea for me to set up a program that I cannot keep.

Tom

Fair enough. I think being as safe as possible is the way to be. What that means to each person and each situation is different based on experience, skills, location, length of trip, type of trip etc... I just want to make sure that having various emergency plans, including a person to call SAR at an arranged upon time, isn't seen negatively by the community. It shouldn't be a crutch for less experienced canyoneers to lean on as they attempt out-of-their-league canyons, but I believe it should be part of all of our plans when possible.