Overdue Bogleyites in Kolob

[Sombeech]

Sometimes the SPOT works great, but I guess once in a while the message is very delayed. When Alex and I just did the Gates of Lodore trip, we would send a SPOT twice a day. My wife was on the list to get notifications. She got her first one 3 days after we had gotten home, then they kept coming in.

Now some will say that's the T-Mobile cell service screwing up, which may be the case.

[xxnitsuaxx]

I hear a lot of people complaining about the permit system and how they have to waste time picking their permits up. Why aren't people taking advantage of the Express permit system? Watch a couple of videos in the VC, pick a password, and you can start printing out your permits 3 days before your actual trip. Doesn't cost anything extra. If you hit Zion even just once a year it's worth it; why doesn't everyone do it?

[Scott P]

I hear a lot of people complaining about the permit system and how they have to waste time picking their permits up. Why aren't people taking advantage of the Express permit system? Watch a couple of videos in the VC, pick a password, and you can start printing out your permits 3 days before your actual trip. Doesn't cost anything extra. If you hit Zion even just once a year it's worth it; why doesn't everyone do it?

Is Kolob even available for express permits?

It's not available for online reservations in the normal system:

https://zionpermits.nps.gov/backcoun...m?TripTypeID=3

[Bo_Beck]

I would say it is more due to my propensity to go with... ahem...old people.

K

Will you still go with...ahem....old people when you are...ahem....old? Will you plan on 2 nights?

[ratagonia]

Is Kolob even available for express permits?

It's not available for online reservations in the normal system:

https://zionpermits.nps.gov/backcoun...m?TripTypeID=3

Kolob is a special case, the Park wants to see you face to face. The Express Permit System only covers the "greatest hits". Ironically, it does not allow printing permits for many canyons where competition for the permits is low.

T

[mdd]

I hear a lot of people complaining about the permit system and how they have to waste time picking their permits up. Why aren't people taking advantage of the Express permit system? Watch a couple of videos in the VC, pick a password, and you can start printing out your permits 3 days before your actual trip. Doesn't cost anything extra. If you hit Zion even just once a year it's worth it; why doesn't everyone do it?

The express permit system was a bunt that should've been a grand slam. It is especially worthless if you hit Zion just once a year. Here is my personal example:

I drive out from Colorado to go to Zion, which is about a 10-11 hour drive. According to the express permit rules, I must apply in person at the backcountry desk, I can't do it remote, so now I can't make use of the service until after I drive out. You have to renew each calendar year (*), so I can't just sign up once and have it be useful for my trip next year. So now that I can't make use of it until I'm out there, I sign up and all is well, right? Well no, you still need to print the permit out, which is kinda a pain since I don't carry a printer with me when I'm camping, and I don't necessarily camp in an area where going to an internet cafe is convenient. Now maybe they've changed the system in the last few years to make it nicer. I can only hope.

(*) Note: one page on the nps site (that would be the express permit login page) says you must sign up every year, another every 3 years. Hmm.

The express permit system is nice if you live in the area or can make an easy weekend trip to the park. For those of us a long distance away it's not so convenient.

M

[Iceaxe]

The express permit system was a bunt that should've been a grand slam.

x2

You have to renew each calendar year (*),

The Express Permit system is now good for 3 calendar years (you sign up today your permit expires December 31, 2013).

I was also told that if you renew your permit before it expires, you do not have to watch the movies again (there are now two movies you have to watch)

I know all this because I just renewed my express permit. I didn't ask, and I wish I had of, but I'd like to know if you can renew your permit over the phone (before it expires) since you are not required to watch the movies for a renewal.

If you let your permit expire you have to do the entire dog and pony show again, even though they can look at their computer screen and see you have pulled 50-something odd permits over the past few years.

[spinesnaper]

I live 8 hours out of the area (LA). I think express permits is swell-Jest sayin. Wish Kolob was on that list. Tom does that mean that Heaps and Imlay are also not on the express permits list?

Ken

[reflection]

What's the relevant and compelling narrative in all of this? Two groups in Kolob on Saturday. One group HAD an overnite permit and planned to and did camp in the canyon adjacent to MIA exit. Once this was explained to rangers, their overdue status erased. The other group though, should have or could have obtained an overnite permit -but chose not to and/or were ignorant re the dues required for a wet march/swim after the technical stretch . Group two must have camped far above the exit point, because the group camping there heard not a whisper from anyone else. And another riddle; park rangers tagged group two as obtaining their permit at 10:00 am. Group two leader says permit was obtained at 7:15 am? Group two also doesn't understand the tension with Park SAR when the expectation is that parties are going to exit the same day. Almost argues for sending one person from the group up that can send a viable spot, can connect with family and can give an OK to inquiring rangers. And it's a reminder that maybe folk should change work schedules, get permits and suits a day in advance and if they wish to do the trip in a day, be realistic about what one can and can't do - and if there is doubt, GET THE OVERNITE in combo with the tech permit. And lets not dabble with the MIA exit in the dark, particularly if we've never done the venture before. And the lazy crazy Spot units. Group 1 told me they sent 2-3 spots. None of them "worked". And group two sends a spot that is delayed? Reliance on these units as a tool of communication, in many canyons, is nearly useless. I heard and felt the tension of the Park Service. Folk doing the canyon should pay attention...stay OFF the SAR radar...if things like this keep happening, unintended consequences...who knows what the future of Kolob is going to be? Maybe park officials should be more strident, give out overnite permits for Kolob unless specifically requested otherwise. And SAR unit not jump into play until at least 24 hours after the 2nd day. Somebody really slipped, getting a "late" start and not ever anticipating a possible overnite stay. Lessons or justified fables follow.

[Jaxx]

Why did I even post this on Bogley? This has turned into a big cluster.... of bs quarterbacking about made up info. Top that all off with big egos.

The guys we were worried about (group 2, I think from reflections ramblings) had a bum knee slow them down. They started a little late and figured that they were not worried about bivying near the MIA. They ended up stopping about an hour from the MIA. Spots weren't getting through.
I called the bc desk at about 8:30 AM telling them that there was a party that should have been out yesterday but got a late start, I thought it was later but the SPOT message was delayed a few hours, and they probably just had to bivy.
I asked the Ranger what protocol was. I expressed that I wasn't too worried at that time but didn't know when to notify Rangers. He passed me on to dispatch and they said to call back later if I hadn't heard from them.
I got a call around 12:30 from dispatch asking if I had heard from them. I hadn't so they sent a Ranger to babysit the vehicle. They said they would have a helicopter sent over the canyon at around 3, that was later changed to 4 PM.
I called them at about 3:45 telling them I got an OK from the spot and don't send the heli. The Rangers spotted the group and everyone when home happy.
So a later start than normal, a bum knee slowing the group down, a few missed SPOT messages, and Rangers wanting to have a helicopter fly over elevated the situation.

The story isn't as glamorous and exciting as it has been made out to be. I was contemplating going down there that night and rim walking if we didn't hear anything from the heli fly-over.

I have to say the Rangers/Dispatch I talked to were awesome.

[mdd]

I heard and felt the tension of the Park Service. Folk doing the canyon should pay attention...stay OFF the SAR radar...if things like this keep happening, unintended consequences...who knows what the future of Kolob is going to be?

If I might ask, can you please post the interaction that led you to "feel the tension of the Park Service?" Especially given Jaxx's latest post, I find it hard to believe that, in Tom's words: "This kind of nonsense is what causes land managers and SAR supervisors to view canyoneers with a jaundiced eye." It sounds like the NPS acted without wrath or a jaundiced eye.

Unplanned bivys happen. If the NPS or SAR was really upset about them, we would never be climbing in Yosemite or RMNP, and we'd probably never be canyoneering in Zion or really on any public land. Statements like yours sound like a lot of grandstanding and fear mongering. I know several groups that had unplanned bivys who were contacted by SAR, they all report courteous interactions, not one has mentioned any sort of "tension" or scolding, none led to "unintended consequences", just everyone safe and sound.

Mistakes happen. Most people who have climbed or canyoneered for long enough have had an unplanned bivy or epic at some point. It's not the end of the world. Hell, several people died in a stupid preventable accident in Kolob (leading to expensive settlements) and in the end after the dust settled we can still go there, why would this unplanned bivy have "unintended consequences" concerning "the future of Kolob?"

This is a mountain out of a molehill if I've ever seen one.

I'm really glad everyone made it out ok. Now you have lessons learned and a cool story to tell around the campfire. I'm glad it was nothing more serious.


M

[jman]

Why did I even post this on Bogley? This has turned into a big cluster.... of bs quarterbacking about made up info. Top that all off with big egos.

Jaxx, don't sweat it. It's called the Internet. Internet stories/forums ALWAYS get blown out of proportion.

Thanks for sharing, and don't worry what people on here think of you.

[ratagonia]

I live 8 hours out of the area (LA). I think express permits is swell-Jest sayin. Wish Kolob was on that list. Tom does that mean that Heaps and Imlay are also not on the express permits list?

Ken

Heaps and Imlay are normal canyons, and on the express permit list.

[accadacca]

[ratagonia]

If I might ask, can you please post the interaction that led you to "feel the tension of the Park Service?" Especially given Jaxx's latest post, I find it hard to believe that, in Tom's words: "This kind of nonsense is what causes land managers and SAR supervisors to view canyoneers with a jaundiced eye." It sounds like the NPS acted without wrath or a jaundiced eye.

Unplanned bivys happen. If the NPS or SAR was really upset about them, we would never be climbing in Yosemite or RMNP, and we'd probably never be canyoneering in Zion or really on any public land. Statements like yours sound like a lot of grandstanding and fear mongering. I know several groups that had unplanned bivys who were contacted by SAR, they all report courteous interactions, not one has mentioned any sort of "tension" or scolding, none led to "unintended consequences", just everyone safe and sound.

Mistakes happen. Most people who have climbed or canyoneered for long enough have had an unplanned bivy or epic at some point. It's not the end of the world. Hell, several people died in a stupid preventable accident in Kolob (leading to expensive settlements) and in the end after the dust settled we can still go there, why would this unplanned bivy have "unintended consequences" concerning "the future of Kolob?"

This is a mountain out of a molehill if I've ever seen one.

I'm really glad everyone made it out ok. Now you have lessons learned and a cool story to tell around the campfire. I'm glad it was nothing more serious.

M

Was just chatting about this non-incident with Zion SAR personnel this morning.

They are very glad that they did not have to perform a full-fledged rescue or body recovery. They are very glad that Jaxx's communications to Dispatch were intelligent, helpful and mature. They do not often get that.

If the Spot message and Jaxx's "All OK" call had come 15 minutes later, they would have had the bird in the air and have already spent $1000, so they are very glad that did not happen.

The point of this conversation is, there were things Party B could have done, should have done, that would have not engaged SAR. Engaging SAR when un-needed is BAD. Even without a bit of a sprained knee, the schedule indicated = bivy, most likely. This SHOULD have been known up front, and accounted for. It was not.

So be a big boy and admit that mistakes were made. Take your well-deserved chastisement like an adult. You think I LIKE playing the Bad Cop? (Well, actually, it has its moments). It is my JOB to play the BAD COP - and it is not for your benefit, Jaxx, as much as it is to everyone in the community (if they wish to take the message to heart) that they have responsibilities to the community, and to the Park, to build reasonable expectations and to communicate these to the permitting system, and to not have SAR called out for them when they don't need it.

Okay?

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Jaxx, don't sweat it. It's called the Internet. Internet stories/forums ALWAYS get blown out of proportion.

Thanks for sharing, and don't worry what people on here think of you.

x2

I'm really surprised the NPS got their panties in a wad over this....

I've been around SAR personal when parties are over due in Heaps and Imlay (planned on only taking one day, picked up a permit for one day, but it took two days). And the NPS response to those situations was lets just monitor things and make sure the group didn't take a little longer than expected. I would expect that to be the NPS response to any group doing Kolob and the MIA, particularly with a group that had never done either before.

Mistakes in navigation can be extremely time consuming, and the MIA leads to navigation errors.

YMMV

[Jaxx]

So be a big boy and admit that mistakes were made.

Biggest mistake was posting on Bogley.
Second biggest mistake was calling NPS based on what I was getting from SPOT. Lesson learned- Don't rely on spot at all.

Take your well-deserved chastisement like an adult.

Wow. OK MOM. How long am I grounded for?

You think I LIKE playing the Bad Cop? (Well, actually, it has its moments). It is my JOB to play the BAD COP - and it is not for your benefit, Jaxx, as much as it is to everyone in the community (if they wish to take the message to heart) that they have responsibilities to the community, and to the Park, to build reasonable expectations and to communicate these to the permitting system, and to not have SAR called out for them when they don't need it.

Well you are coming off as an ass in the process. Maybe you should practice interacting with people more. Your social skills are seriously lacking.

[nelsonccc]

Jaxx, don't sweat it. It's called the Internet. Internet stories/forums ALWAYS get blown out of proportion.

Thanks for sharing, and don't worry what people on here think of you.

EXACTLY. I love how everyone is an expert. I strongly suspect that most parties who do MIA the first time spend the night or exit very late. I know of several parties, myself included, that have started kolob later than planned and exited in the dark. Give me a break, like no one else here has ever started a canyon later than planned.

Now if Jaxx hadn't been a massive gaping vagina and called the NPS way too early than none of this would have happend. Truly he's the one to blame here.

[reflection]

OK Mr. Jaxx, I had live phone conversations Sunday mid day with the rangers too. My comments (hopefully) reflect on what others may do, or think about doing in the future. I'm happy you posted what you did, and between the lines, if folk wish to folllow, there is something to learn and understand for those that haven't done the Oaks, Boundary or Kolob and gone out the MIA. The Rangers can have and did have their own opinions re the circumstances on Sunday. There were two groups in there and I urged them to hold off on the chopper (expense), and reminded two rangers (neither of whom were familiar with the Kolob technical, corridor or MIA exit) to hold off, feeling the folk were likely going to show up. I reminded them that lots of people take a bit longer than a single day. Hopefully you and others can distinquish slight critique from hurtful commentary. I compliment you in being able to communicate (on this site) and with the rangers - that's commendable. If some others don't agree with you, then welcome to "that" crowd. And excuse me for "rambling." What you don't know, and what I won't explain on this site is the often heated commentary I heard from two that did the canyon, from two rangers I spoke with and the second hand commentary offered by two other rangers that spoke with two adults that were in the "first" Kolob group. Remember, for a few hours, the concern was a "big deal" and they were talking, pondering, bringing in a chopper. Anyway, the commentary (most of it, that's civil) is interesting, and some folk, may pay attention a bit more, next time, particularly if they are first timers. Also distinguish, folk talking about the situation, vs attacking or criticising the people in question. Personally I believe and accept the circumstance they were in. So that you know, twice I've been in that corridor and because of unseen circumstances, an unplanned bivy occurred. In both cases we had a one day permit. But no family member called, no spots were sent and no park officials got out of their chairs because of us. Anyway, do you get it? I, many of us have been in that circumstance; and in my case, I guess, I'm talking about what I would do differently next time. Excuse me for suggesting that others, your friends, family, should have possibly done something different. But then I wonder, how and when do folk learn, and do the same mistakes happen over and over? Kolob, because of it's history, is not the place, in my view, to make mistakes? Like my friends that went down Saturday, I talked to them about the venture and the probable need for an overnite - and that's what they asked for on the permit. But then oops, somebody in some office typed the wrong entry on the computer to may it look like they were day trippers. Anyway, thanks again for your views and opinions. I've done canyons now going on for a decade and a half; but Sunday was the first time I've spoken with rangers (outside of social settings, trainings and meetings) where they were dialed in to launching a potential search, re my friends. I know/knew enough about the area to give input, but I also heard clearly the concern they had for the folk in the canyon. Impressive that the rangers can get so so dialed up re looking out for folk. OK, I'll stop

[ratagonia]

I know/knew enough about the area to give input, but I also heard clearly the concern they had for the folk in the canyon. Impressive that the rangers can get so so dialed up re looking out for folk. OK, I'll stop

In almost all other Zion canyons, the clock is not ticking as much as in Kolob. With the flow in Kolob (and Boundary), getting a rope stuck or having a somewhat serious injury somewhere in the rappel section of the canyon could lead to threat to life fairly quickly. Zion SAR would look like poop if this occurred and they did not rally a rescue in a timely manner (waiting for that 24 hour window to time out), and someone died.

A tough choice for Zion SAR, not a decision I envy having the responsibility for.

Tom