Overdue Bogleyites in Kolob

[bshwakr]

Who said there are two types of canyoneers: Those who have had an unplanned overnight bivouac and those who will have an unplanned overnight bivouac?

Ken

I've had a few of those, but none were due to a late start.

k

[tcott]

I've had a few of those, but none were due to a late start.

k

Were they due to excessive bushwacking???

[bshwakr]

I would say it is more due to my propensity to go with... ahem...old people.

K

[reflection]

Interesting that park officials did/do take such a heightened interest in perceived overdue "hikers" in the Kolob zone.
Two groups went through Saturday. One (group A) planning an overnite and the second getting suprised and staying overnite. (The Park though, for a while, believed that two groups were overdue.)

Sunday eve I spoke with parties from group A. They said it was "slow going" from the last "blasting waterfall" rap in Kolob. Lots of wading, smimming and slow travel, with slippery rocks, & mud. They were "worn out" by the time they reached the bottom of the MIA, and stayed there that nite, AS PLANNED. Group A Sunday, "apparently" topped out at West Rim trailhead approx 1-2 hours before group B. (I know other groups that have gone through much of the same and still, have gone all the way to the Narrows, and beyond in one day, or out the MIA - whatever; different folk have different styles, interests and speed. And if folk Did PLAN to stay overnite, they would carry more weight/gear.)

After speaking with the rangers though, and feeling and sensing their tension and concern, I'm reminded that "some" folk, probably, should signal (on their permit) a possible/planned overnite if/when they tag a Kolob res. That way, if the venture stretches into two days, nobody is "overdue" after day one.

Also, if it's going to be a one day venture, folk should have a crew that equitably carries the weight, is fit, and doesn't linger once the last "big rap" is concluded. Folk need to rehydrate, take in electrolytes and pay attention to time and speed of travel. (Or) This is all "nonsense"....folk will do canyons, Kolob in particular, any which way they wish, (and in their minds) shame on the Park Service or "snappy" canyoneers for questioning them or having concern. There is a chaotic crowd, at times/often, that enters some of these zones, and then gets to enroll in the MIA exit quest. Let's see, Oaks, Boundary, Kolob...unplanned bivys when folk "gave out", people giving out on the MIA exit, and folk collapsing when they reach the road atop the MIA exit. (Is this all make believe, I don't think so) And is this all make believe that Park Service Staff Sunday - mid day - were REAL CONCERNED? Those that haven't entered "these zones" or the "beloved MIA exit", pause before you finalize the permit or plans (or throw caution to the wind and care not for your crew or for the Park Service.) Tardy (tawdry) carefree canyoneers that quickly become "SAR (Park Service) trail bait"?

And, family members, friends, should be trained to stall, stop...and not call park officials if someone is merely hours, or a half day or day tardy, if they did the Kolob venture. Some, can, do it easily in a day, others, always seem to (oops)stretch it into two. If/when a family member calls, Park Service SAR jump to attention. And the dimension and context of the "experience" changes. (How to know, that someone is slow, stalled, or is injured, or in trouble; even with a "sent" SPOT that is not working or is "haywire".)

And the SPOT system, that is often so dysfunctional, inside canyons. Not sending out signals when "senders" believe they were sent, OR long delays in actual sending when the unit shows the signal was sent. More chaos I surmise.

Two completedly different narratives. Park Service that was so attentive and concerned for hours. And canyoneers (aloof re the concern of possible SAR) that finally reach the West Rim trailhead vehicles, tired and worn). Those that pay their dues, try hard, to stay free (and far) from this "tension" that builds, when Park Service officials are put in these situations.

And then the tumbling, fumbling or rigid truthful facts that evidence once the SAR concern has passed. Communication, expectation, adaptation, flexibility...I'd rather meet rangers or LE Officers in a social setting than in a search/rescue...things can get intense quickly, "and the other side" often, (just like life) doesn't have a clue that others out there, have a real concern, especially if they are stalled or slow.

Everybody (in the two groups) is safe and fine. Is that the end of it? Ever wonder why the Water Conservancy District and the Backcountry Park Officials (try and) lean toward announcing that more than 5 cfs is running in Kolob? Yes, I heard it in the voices of the two rangers yesterday, that tension...is that the end of it? I don't know? Maybe for them, another day at work, or maybe more management concern re Kolob? Truth or Consequences? And then by golly, responsible folk that "tag" that OK spot early in the morning and later in the afternoon - but it never sends, or sends "late." Equitable mitigation I guess? Lots of trustworthy, reasonable people out there too, trying to communicate - but the system stalls. Sunday the specter, call from a nephew in windy Rhode Island (Hurricane) and the call from the Rangers (another mini-hurricane of activity, of sorts).

[canyonguru]

Just wondering why you guys didn't get your permits the day before and also your dry suites. ZAC will let you get your stuff the night before with no extra charge. This way you could have started the canyon at 7:15 instead of just getting your permits at 7:15. Glad to hear that you had a good time and that all went well. I would love to try Kolob one of these days, maybe next year. I was in line Saturday morning around 7 ish to get some pine creek permits for some boys.

I loved the retards at the window in front of us reading their Tom Jones Zion book deciding what permits they wanted while holding the rest of us up. Good book but holy crap figure out what you are doing before you get to the window.

[Boots]

Just wondering why you guys didn't get your permits the day before and also your dry suites. ZAC will let you get your stuff the night before with no extra charge. This way you could have started the canyon at 7:15 instead of just getting your permits at 7:15.

Two of us don't get off work until 5:00 pm, so we weren't able to leave Orem until just before 6:00 pm. By the time we got down there, it was too late to get permits or any of the gear we needed from ZAC.

[ratagonia]

Two of us don't get off work until 5:00 pm, so we weren't able to leave Orem until just before 6:00 pm. By the time we got down there, it was too late to get permits or any of the gear we needed from ZAC.

I think there is somewhat of a disconnect here.

I don't think it unreasonable of you guys to go do Kolob. I think it unreasonable of you guys to embarrass yourselves and the canyoneering community by having SAR called out (however minimally), when no reasonable canyoneer ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman ) would expect you to pick up your permit in the morning, pick up gear, drive to Lava Point and get out of that canyon, up the MIA, that evening. The BOOK lists it as a Grade IV or V:

Kolob Rating: 3C IV or V
Time required: 9 to 12 hours

page 126: Grade IV: expected to take a long day. Get up early, bring a headlamp. Possible bivy.

(going out through the Narrows would make it a Grade V).

If you had acted reasonably, and just taken an overnight permit, then there would be no kerfuffle, and we would be high-fiving you for a wonderful trip report.

Thus: Kerfuffle.

[ratagonia]

I would say it is more due to my propensity to go with... ahem...old people.

K

Hey, I resemble that remark. C'mon over here and I'll beat you with my cane!!!!

[mdd]

I think it unreasonable of you guys to embarrass yourselves and the canyoneering community by having SAR called out...

Lighten up, Tom. Nobody's perfect.

Edited to add: if anything, this episode shows just how much more cumbersome Zion canyoneering is to those that don't live next to Zion. It isn't always easy to get into town, get your permit, get your ZAC equipment etc given the logistics of driving in, say, after work or whatever. It's too bad the NPS and apparently ZAC couldn't be more accommodating.

M

[Scott P]

If you had acted reasonably, and just taken an overnight permit, then there would be no kerfuffle, and we would be high-fiving you for a wonderful trip report.

What would the overnight permit be for? Isn't any part of Upper Kolob (i.e. above MIA) that is reasonable to camp well outside the park boundary? Even if you planned to do it in two days while exiting at MIA, I thought you wouldn't need an overnight permit?

[ratagonia]

What would the overnight permit be for? Isn't any part of Upper Kolob (i.e. above MIA) that is reasonable to camp well outside the park boundary? Even if you planned to do it in two days while exiting at MIA, I thought you wouldn't need an overnight permit?

Part of the justification for the Permit Program is that then the Park SAR knows what your plans are, and knows when to get riled up for a rescue. You need a permit for Kolob, and you tell them your plans then, one day or two day - out MIA or out The Narrows (requires Narrows Permit), bivy inside the park or outside the park. All on the same permit, no extra fee.

So, yes, Mr. Shadetree Lawyer, you do not need an overnight permit for bivying outside the Park. But providing information that ends up being incorrect - that is impolite.

Tom

[nelsonccc]

I told them not to even bother with a permit. Waste of time and in this case causes exactly what I told them would happen, a late start and subsequently a late finish. These guys are very adept at canyons and far more athletic than I am. In their defense I think that without the knee injury to redbp they would have just been like most everyone else, finishing the mia in the dark. The 1st time I did it we got a late start too, like at 10. We finished fine, albeit with a long wondering finish up the MIA.

They may have gotten a bit of a late start for that canyon and perhaps overestimated their time allowances accordingly, but who here hasn't done that? Especially in Zion? the real issue is that the family should know NOT to call sar till 24-48 hours have past. Thats what I tell people. I'm always prepared for an overnighter and my family knows not to worry till evening of the day after the scheduled exit time.

[ratagonia]

Lighten up, Tom. Nobody's perfect.

Edited to add: if anything, this episode shows just how much more cumbersome Zion canyoneering is to those that don't live next to Zion. It isn't always easy to get into town, get your permit, get your ZAC equipment etc given the logistics of driving in, say, after work or whatever. It's too bad the NPS and apparently ZAC couldn't be more accommodating.

M

This kind of nonsense is what causes land managers and SAR supervisors to view canyoneers with a jaundiced eye. So, I decline your request to lighten up.

It's not like any of this was hidden from these guys. ALL I'm complaining about is that they did not tell the permit writer that they would likely be taking two days to do the canyon. OR that they did not tell that to whomever called out the rescue squad.

Let's see, earliest possible permit - 7:15. ZAC opens at 8:00, if they had called ahead and reserved, maybe out of there by 8:15. Lava Point by 9:15, fast pack = start hiking at 9:30. Even at fast-book-time of 9:00, that would be 6:30 pm, that gives an hour and a half of extra time until sunset, but... first time through this canyon, first time up the MIA, not very experienced in this kind of canyon - unlikely to make fast book time, more like slow-book-time = 12 hours, in which case that means 12:00 hours = bivy before starting up the MIA.

To me, it seems conspicuous that they were going to bivy. So it would have been nice to tell whomever that, so the cavalry was not called out quite so soon.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Lighten up, Tom. Nobody's perfect.

M

Doesn't using the word 'Kerfuffle' constitute lightening up???

T

[Scott P]

Tom: If you had acted reasonably, and just taken an overnight permit, then there would be no kerfuffle, and we would be high-fiving you for a wonderful trip report.

Scott: What would the overnight permit be for? Isn't any part of Upper Kolob (i.e. above MIA) that is reasonable to camp well outside the park boundary? Even if you planned to do it in two days while exiting at MIA, I thought you wouldn't need an overnight permit?

Tom: Part of the justification for the Permit Program is that then the Park SAR knows what your plans are, and knows when to get riled up for a rescue. You need a permit for Kolob, and you tell them your plans then, one day or two day - out MIA or out The Narrows (requires Narrows Permit), bivy inside the park or outside the park. All on the same permit, no extra fee.

So, yes, Mr. Shadetree Lawyer, you do not need an overnight permit for bivying outside the Park. But providing information that ends up being incorrect - that is impolite.

Tom, I haven't done upper Kolob (only below MIA to the Narrows) yet, so it was the NPS rangers themselves who told me that there are no reasonable campsites in Upper Kolob until you are outside the park (at least according to them) and thus (according to the NPS) no overnight camping permits are issued for Upper Kolob (and you must camp outside the park), hence the question.

Somewhere there was an old canyons group thread I started that was about camping in Kolob.

Or do you mean that you are supposed to get a day permit, but just have them write on the permit that you are camping outside the park on day 2? Or do they issue overnight permits for Upper Kolob now? Last time I tried to get a permit for Kolob was in 2007, so maybe this information is old, but when I do the canyon, I'd probably rather overnight it. (Then again, once I was even told that overnight permits weren't issued for Imlay [there is another canyons group thread on this], so maybe the above isn't true).

[Spidey]

I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around why it took both groups so long in there? I intentionally get started late (11:00 a.m.) on that side, just to have shade up the MIA at 6-7 p.m.

[ratagonia]

Tom, I haven't done upper Kolob (only below MIA to the Narrows) yet, so it was the NPS rangers themselves who told me that there are no reasonable campsites in Upper Kolob until you are outside the park (at least according to them) and thus (according to the NPS) no overnight camping permits are issued for Upper Kolob (and you must camp outside the park), hence the question.

Somewhere there was an old canyons group thread I started that was about camping in Kolob.

Or do you mean that you are supposed to get a day permit, but just have them write on the permit that you are camping outside the park on day 2? Or do they issue overnight permits for Upper Kolob now? Last time I tried to get a permit for Kolob was in 2007, so maybe this information is old, but when I do the canyon, I'd probably rather overnight it. (Then again, once I was even told that overnight permits weren't issued for Imlay [there is another canyons group thread on this], so maybe the above isn't true).

Perhaps I am assuming too much on the Permit Systems sophistication - and perhaps this explains why the other party was also considered "overdue", even though they were on the schedule they expected to be on. Or perhaps, the personnel writing the permits were not aware that this distinction was important, as to what day the folks expected to be out.

One is "in the Park", at least on the right bank of the stream, for quite a ways past the "last rap". One's interpretations of what constitutes a reasonable bivy site varies from person to person. When I am really, really tired, it does not take much. So, yes, there are reasonable bivy spots IN the park, in upper Kolob - but that is not really the point. The 'normal' bivy spot for a two-day non-MIA Kolob would be somewhere between the MIA and the Narrows, some of which is in the Park, some of which is not.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around why it took both groups so long in there? I intentionally get started late (11:00 a.m.) on that side, just to have shade up the MIA at 6-7 p.m.

These people, they are not Spidey. They have no Spidey powers.

jes' sayin'

[Scott P]

When I am really, really tired, it does not take much. So, yes, there are reasonable bivy spots IN the park, in upper Kolob - but that is not really the point.

Yes, but I don't think you understood the question. I was asking if the NPS even issues overnight permits for upper Kolob. I was under the impression that they did not, but that you could still camp outside the park.

I guess this is getting off topic though.

[Iceaxe]

NOTE TO SELF: Don't waste coin buying a SPOT, they are a P.O.S.