Overdue Bogleyites in Kolob

[ratagonia]

Give me a break, like no one else here has ever started a canyon later than planned.

Uh, they did not start the canyon 'later than planned'. They started late, but right on schedule, for getting the permit and gear in town that morning.

Now if Jaxx hadn't been a massive gaping vagina and called the NPS way too early than none of this would have happend. Truly he's the one to blame here.

I suspect this is supposed to make sense to SOMEONE, but to me it just looks like random vulgarity. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase this in a way that makes sense to the class.

Tom

[jhillock]

To anyone that went through Kolob last weekend. Was it cold enough to warrant dry suits, or would a full 4 or 5mm wetsuit have sufficed?

[Redpb]

To anyone that went through Kolob last weekend. Was it cold enough to warrant dry suits, or would a full 4 or 5mm wetsuit have sufficed?

ZAC was suggesting full dry suits or 8mm. I'm so glad I went with the dry suit and I think we all agreed on that. Even with the dry suit and full fleece on underneath there were times, if you were in the water too long, it got pretty cold.

[Boots]

Uh, they did not start the canyon 'later than planned'. They started late, but right on schedule, for getting the permit and gear in town that morning.

Sorry Tom, you're way off. Nelson is 100% right; sure, maybe our original starting time wasn't as early as your royal highness would have preferred but we most definitely did start even later than we had planned.

[spinesnaper]

Heaps and Imlay are normal canyons, and on the express permit list.

Right, right. They are doing what they must to prevent needless death and mayhem do to lack of communication between canyoneers and the Water District.

Ken

[flatiron]

I strongly suspect that most parties who do MIA the first time spend the night or exit very late.

Your kidding, right??? If that is truly the case then all beta s/be changed to reflect such! Guys, it's not that hard, either physically or route finding. If you lack in either department that's ok. But recognize your limits and adjust accordingly. Don't go off 1/2 cocked and hope for best. 1) Get going wayyy early. Real simple. It's a long day no matter what. 2) Do not practice route finding in MIA. Go out and hike, scramble, get off trail, at safer places so you can learn how to use map, compass, gps, but mostly how to hone and know your abilities. Route finding is a blast, but dang, it is a learned skill. NOT doing either puts OTHER people in possible unnecessary serious situations. There is a difference between needing help or rescue because of accident, and being irresponsible. 3) Or be lead by someone who has done and KNOWS the route.
MIA should take 1 hr. 2 if not in shape. 3-???? if not in shape, can't route find, and plan B is have someone else rescue your a-- (in which case don't do it)

[ratagonia]

Sorry Tom, you're way off. Nelson is 100% right; sure, maybe our original starting time wasn't as early as your royal highness would have preferred but we most definitely did start even later than we had planned.

I'm sorry. I made the assumption that youse guys could figure out how long it would take you to get saddled up. Guess I was wrong. My apologies.

I have no attachment to when you start. I have attachment to you not getting SAR called out because you're lame.

Tom

[chabidiah]

"Mine's bigger"
"No, mine's bigger"

blah blah blah

This thread has turned to verbal diarrhea, the canyon was great, the water added an interesting element and yes I would suggest a dry-suit. We had no difficulties navigating the MIA, I guess we knew that you had to go up and look for others tracks. I would suggest getting an early start and maybe not to post on Bogley for support. I don't post of here very often and this thread is the reason.

[bshwakr]

I'm sorry. I made the assumption that youse guys could figure out how long it would take you to get saddled up. Guess I was wrong. My apologies.

I have no attachment to when you start. I have attachment to you not getting SAR called out because you're lame.

Tom

Seems to me that Kelseyites have now become Bogleyites.

k

[spinesnaper]

Seems to me that Kelseyites have now become Bogleyites.

k

Oh boy. This could be a long thread.

[bshwakr]

Sorry Tom, you're way off. Nelson is 100% right; sure, maybe our original starting time wasn't as early as your royal highness would have preferred but we most definitely did start even later than we had planned.

I have a problem with the fact that you even defend your 'schedule'. See Tom, like a few others (who have been doing this for more that 15 years), believes there are some obvious 'knowns' to the sport: one of which is start early in Summer! There are multiple reasons aside from your group not knowing the route. One is we are right in the middle of Monsoon season in a canyon that already contains water (one of my least favorite flash floods was in Kolob). So, I guess Tom's main problem is that he was not understanding of your level of inexperience...he should watch himself there and he might come to realize that as long as there are unwavering enthusiasts like yourselves, there will always be rescues.

k

[nelsonccc]

Your kidding, right??? If that is truly the case then all beta s/be changed to reflect such! Guys, it's not that hard, either physically or route finding. If you lack in either department that's ok. But recognize your limits and adjust accordingly. Don't go off 1/2 cocked and hope for best. 1) Get going wayyy early. Real simple. It's a long day no matter what. 2) Do not practice route finding in MIA. Go out and hike, scramble, get off trail, at safer places so you can learn how to use map, compass, gps, but mostly how to hone and know your abilities. Route finding is a blast, but dang, it is a learned skill. NOT doing either puts OTHER people in possible unnecessary serious situations. There is a difference between needing help or rescue because of accident, and being irresponsible. 3) Or be lead by someone who has done and KNOWS the route.
MIA should take 1 hr. 2 if not in shape. 3-???? if not in shape, can't route find, and plan B is have someone else rescue your a-- (in which case don't do it)

Oh I get it, everyone is an expert. WOW. I'll say it again, who here hasn't spent an unplanned night in a canyon? Had a later than normal starting time? If these haven't occurred to you then you're not doing that many canyons. IMHO. Shit happens. I'm sure these guys would be the first to say they wish they had gotten an earlier start, life happens, they got a permit, got a late start. It happens. Why crucify them for doing the same thing most of us have done before as well? Lots of rocks being thrown here...

I never said to change the beta. I'm saying that I suspect that most parties doing Kolob and the MIA for the first time take more time than they thought it would. Yes that would typically warrant an early start, but obviously these guys thought that they would be okay. That's their decision. They are a strong and experienced group. I feel for them, they drive all the way down from SLC, get a permit, drysuits, and then get the earliest start they could. I've personally started kolob purposely later so that the hike up the mia and dirt roads occurs in the evening, BUT I've done Kolob multiple times, and the MIA more than a dozen times.

I think if they hadn't had the knee injury than they probably would have just exited in the evening like most people. Seems every year there is a thread about a group spending the night on the MIA. Seems like overkill.

[bshwakr]

Oh I get it, everyone is an expert. WOW. I'll say it again, who here hasn't spent an unplanned night in a canyon? Had a later than normal starting time? If these haven't occurred to you then you're not doing that many canyons. IMHO. Shit happens. I'm sure these guys would be the first to say they wish they had gotten an earlier start, life happens, they got a permit, got a late start. It happens. Why crucify them for doing the same thing most of us have done before as well? Lots of rocks being thrown here...

I never said to change the beta. I'm saying that I suspect that most parties doing Kolob and the MIA for the first time take more time than they thought it would. Yes that would typically warrant an early start, but obviously these guys thought that they would be okay. That's their decision. They are a strong and experienced group. I feel for them, they drive all the way down from SLC, get a permit, drysuits, and then get the earliest start they could. I've personally started kolob purposely later so that the hike up the mia and dirt roads occurs in the evening, BUT I've done Kolob multiple times, and the MIA more than a dozen times.

I think if they hadn't had the knee injury than they probably would have just exited in the evening like most people. Seems every year there is a thread about a group spending the night on the MIA. Seems like overkill.

'These things' haven't happened to me in a few years and if you want to make this a pissing contest about canyons, I'm fairly comfortable putting my resume against yours . But at least, let me answer the 'Had a later than normal starting time?'. There is a big difference (on a canyon like Kolob) between aiming for a 5:30am start and leaving at 6:00am and aiming for an 'early start' and hitting the trail after 9:00am. I tend to error on the side of meticulous planning and avoid unwavering dedication. Also, in 1993 Kolob taught us to not only evaluate conditions as we receive more information but also that we shouldn't be afraid to reverse course at any time.

[CarpeyBiggs]

WOW. I'll say it again, who here hasn't spent an unplanned night in a canyon? Had a later than normal starting time?

i haven't ever had to bivy in a canyon. ever. i've had some unplanned situations, but never went outside our contingency plan. best way to not have an epic? start early...

granted, on explorations, this stuff is more likely to happen, and most people i know plan for unexpected bivys when heading into the unknown. but, if this is happening to you with any sort of regularity, especially in canyons with known beta, i'd suggest that you might want to look at why it's happening.

[nelsonccc]

'These things' haven't happened to me in a few years and if you want to make this a pissing contest about canyons, I'm fairly comfortable putting my resume against yours . But at least, let me answer the 'Had a later than normal starting time?'. There is a big difference (on a canyon like Kolob) between aiming for a 5:30am start and leaving at 6:00am and aiming for an 'early start' and hitting the trail after 9:00am. I tend to error on the side of meticulous planning and avoid unwavering dedication. Also, in 1993 Kolob taught us to not only evaluate conditions as we receive more information but also that we shouldn't be afraid to reverse course at any time.

Agreed. I already said they know they got a late start. I'm sure it would be the first thing they would change. It's hard to make that decision to back out after securing the permit and the gear and arriving at the TH later than they planned. They decided to go anyways. They were prepared to spend the night if it came to that. I think they would have just had a late exit w/o the knee injury. Like I said shit happens. They were prepared for the contingency of coming out late if it happened. Somehow I think there was a mix-up in the spot alerts and how the outside contact handled alerting the authorities.

Originally I was supposed to go with them but had to back out due to work but when I was talking to Boots last night I told him that had I been there we would not have gone in that late and instead done something else up there.

[nelsonccc]

i haven't ever had to bivy in a canyon. ever. i've had some unplanned situations, but never went outside our contingency plan. best way to not have an epic? start early...

granted, on explorations, this stuff is more likely to happen, and most people i know plan for unexpected bivys when heading into the unknown. but, if this is happening to you with any sort of regularity, especially in canyons with known beta, i'd suggest that you might want to look at why it's happening.

I spent the night in a canyon, once. We were doing the Full Imlay and it started raining about the time we arrived at the crossroads. We waited (2 hours) and watched as the canyon went from dry to 4-5" of running water. We decided to hike out the crossroads. Was a long miserable night with us spending the night at the bus stop at the TH.

I've had a few late starts and some unplanned situations, but like you, we've been prepared and we've always had a contingency plan. I agree that an early start is the BEST way to avoid an epic, I'm just saying that an early start isn't always possible and that there is no need to crucify these guys for doing what most of us have probably done once or twice in our own canyoneering careers.

[CarpeyBiggs]

i don't see anyone in here getting crucified. i see some people who called SAR for what appeared to be no reason, and a bunch of responses that suggested they made some mistakes, and to take responsibility for their actions. granted, there's been a lack of tact (as always on bogley...) but why is everyone so sensitive? hairpin triggers in here...

i was also there yesterday talking to the rangers about the weekend. they are particularly sensitive about kolob, and mobilizing an SAR for no real reason stresses the resources in the park. and as you can imagine, reflects poorly on the canyoneering community. blah blah blah. none of this comes as a surprise, and the possible consequences shouldn't be surprising either (most likely, continually tough to get permits for kolob, again, no surprise there...)

but you are right, mistakes happen, and could happen to anyone. it just seems this one was entirely preventable.

[ewestesen]

I suspect this is supposed to make sense to SOMEONE, but to me it just looks like random vulgarity. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase this in a way that makes sense to the class.

Tom

I totally agree. Thanks for speaking up on that one Tom.

[ratagonia]

Oh I get it, everyone is an expert. WOW.

I'll say it again, who here hasn't spent an unplanned night in a canyon?

Actually, I think the point, Christian, is that NOT everyone IS an expert, and they should stop pretending they are. These guys 'pretended' they were experts, took a late start and thought they would make book time. If they would frakkin' admit that they were noobs with unrealistic expectations... if they had just been realistic about when they were getting out, then, as I said before, we'd be high-fivin' them for a great TR, rather than pointlessly reworking this material.

There is expertise to be developed. There is stuff to know. If you regularly spend the night in the canyon, for other than humanitarian reasons, then perhaps there is some stuff, some expertise, that you might want to acquire. Or not, I have no problem with people who are happy being a perpetual noob, as long as they are authentic about it.

It took me three tries to actually find the MIA. First trip with Brian Cabe down main Oak, we DID get a late start, but hustled pretty well, had spotty beta and lost the MIA route early, eventually making the road separately after some horrendous bushwhackery, turned on the afterburners to get to the Lava Point campground just at full dark. Still can't believe our luck in rounding up a ride to our car at that hour... but we did. Good karma that Cabe guy brings to the table. Handy!

Even I, master of the un-planned bivy (as a climber), with about 800 canyoneering days under my belt, has spent exactly ONE un-planned night in a canyon.

(For any day out with Kip, I consider a bivy part of the plan. Heck, if I did Keyhole with Kip, I'd bring a headlamp and an emergency blanket).

Tom

[ratagonia]

That's their decision.

No man is an island.

You wanna make it a personal decision, rather than a public decision. Fine. Pull out your checkbook (whomever), write a check for $2000.00 to Zion National Park, send it to Cindy Purcell with a note saying "sorry we were such knuckleheads for getting a rescue called out when it was entirely unnecessary".

That would be:

Cindy Purcell
Zion National Park
Springdale UT 84767

Thanks for wanting to make the community whole, for taking responsibility for your knuckleheadedness.

Conflate. Sorry, tried to work conflate in there somewhere, but the opportunity did not present. Or am I conflating two different threads...

Tom

(Score! got it in in a later post.)