Improving the Zion permit system

[Iceaxe]

Alright.... I have a thought....

What do you think of the Zion backcountry desk holding a lottery every morning when the backcountry window opens up. Everyone eligible for a backcountry permit draws a number and the lowest number goes to the front of the line and then - next - next - next......

Anyone showing up after the permit line opens goes to the back of the line.

This would eliminate the not-camping at the window and since its a lottery your chance is as good as the next guys.

I've seen this system used at other limited entry venues and I prefer it. Your lottery number is obtained by drawing a number out of a hat or something just as simple.

Thoughts?

[wasatchghost]

All I know about the Zion permit system is what I have read on this forum, so this is just a rookie's opinion. Personally I prefer the current system over this idea, but only because I like the idea of having at least a little control in terms of getting permits (i.e Having the ability to camp out and guarantee myself a permit). I definitely see the pros to the system you suggested, but it occurs to me that people that travel a long way who are completely willing to sleep at the window don't want to leave their one shot at the Subway (or whichever canyon) to chance. Maybe they should switch off for different days of the week

[ghawk]

I'd do it. I think the campout method gets a little ridiculous. I do it now to get the permit, but I'd like this method better.

[accadacca]

Dig it.

[ghawk]

I just thought of one problem with this method. you get a big group of 12 who want to do the subway and they all show up and enter the lottery separately. My odds of getting the permit I want just dropped significantly because of one group. you might end up with lots of crowding at the office with groups who want to up their chances. thoughts?

[ewestesen]

Hum... maybe if you enter the lottery and win, you can't have anyone else who entered the lottery be part of your group. That would solve it I think.

[ghawk]

Hum... maybe if you enter the lottery and win, you can't have anyone else who entered the lottery be part of your group. That would solve it I think.

How do you monitor that though?

[hank moon]

Shane, that is a great idea - thanks for putting it out to the Bogles. :)

Fairness and efficiency will be necessary to make it palatable...looking forward to seeing ideas flow out of here.

[ewestesen]

How do you monitor that though?

Ha... yeah... the winners of the lottery have to give the full name of everyone that will be in their group, and then of course those members need to be there so that they can show their ID to prove that they're not just working the system...

Not real convenient I guess.

[Brian in SLC]

I think the early birds should get the worms. You can sleep when you're dead...

[Iceaxe]

I just thought of one problem with this method. you get a big group of 12 who want to do the subway and they all show up and enter the lottery separately. My odds of getting the permit I want just dropped significantly because of one group.

I have a couple of thoughts on that....

Large drops already have a much better chance of getting a permit than smaller groups because they have more resources to throw at the problem. I've watched as many large groups stand in the permit line in shifts. Its not a big deal to stand in line at midnight if you know your shift is only one hour and than you get to go catch some Z's.

My other thought is with a lottery your mathematical chance of getting the permit you want is the same as everyone else wanting to do that particular canyon on that day, which seems fair enough to me.

Also, in one respect smaller groups (6 or less) have an advantage in that if Subway permits are all taken its easy for them to shift to a second choice that might have a 6 person limit.

The group I see at a disadvantage with the system is families. You have to be 18 or older to get a permit I believe. Which means groups with kids don't get to add the full weight of their numbers into the mix.

[oldno7]

How about a daily auction...

No minimum bid...

[trackrunner]

I just thought of one problem with this method. you get a big group of 12 who want to do the subway and they all show up and enter the lottery separately. My odds of getting the permit I want just dropped significantly because of one group. you might end up with lots of crowding at the office with groups who want to up their chances. thoughts?

same problem happens now with the lottery reservation for subway & mystery

[Deathcricket]

Just trying to work our in my head, how it would go.....

Let's just use Subway to keep it simple. So you have 3 groups of 12 trying to get in the Subway they are all present for the "drawing" so that is 36 people. They draw tickets 1-36. Ticket 1 is pulled and group "A" of 12 people wins it. That just negated 12 tickets in the drawing pool. Then it's just 24 valid of the 36. So he can call 12 numbers that are meaningless. It doesn't seem like that big a deal, but you could potentially have 200 people sitting at the front desk window and when only 1/6th of them are potentially valid it would be very confusing I think.

But really anything is better than what they got now, so why not!

[Iceaxe]

but you could potentially have 200 people sitting at the front desk window and when only 1/6th of them are potentially valid it would be very confusing I think.

I don't see where that is really any different then what they have now.... you have X number of people vying for Y number of spots. That is never going to change.

Safety has to also be an issue. Standing alone in the dark is not really safe and I'm betting anyone who gets to sleep until 6:30 is going to be a much better risk then someone how has been standing in line since 1 am.

[Deathcricket]

It might be better, assuming we actually had a say and the NPS is even interested in improving the situation. I guess I would need a hard number in my head of how many people would actually show up. I'm just guessing at the 200 number. But how long would it seriously take to hand out tickets to everyone and then call out said numbers when I'm guessing 75% would not even be valid groups? "OK ticket #2 calling ticket 2, no? Ok ticket #3 calling ticket 3 for the line, no? Ok ticket 4" etc.

But even if it takes an hour, it's still an improvement. All we need now is for someone to die, then the family members to sue the NPS because the person was up all night waiting for said permits. That will get er done!

[Iceaxe]

You really don't even need to call out the numbers.... just tell folks to line up 1 to whatever. If they are not smart enough to do that they don't deserve a permit.

As I said, I've seen this done at other places and it takes about five minutes to pull numbers and get the people lined up... and the line really isn't any longer because not everyone that pulls a number gets in line. Normally a group is after one permit so the member of the group that pulls the smallest number takes their place in line and everyone else stands over in the corner and plays grabass, similar to now.

FWIW: Coyote Butte uses this system (or at least they did, I haven't been there in a couple of years) to distribute their daily walk-ins and it works well IMHO.

[ewestesen]

My other thought is with a lottery your mathematical chance of getting the permit you want is the same as everyone else wanting to do that particular canyon on that day, which seems fair enough to me.

That's true for individuals, not groups. Say there are 8 permits available for the day. I have three people in my group, and another group shows up with eight people. Us three, and the group of eight all put our names in the drawing. The larger group has a much better chance of one of their names being drawn than my smaller group... soooo...yeah.

Maybe there should just be a seniority rule! The longer you've been canyoneering, the more priority you have to get a permit. Of course... I wouldn't ever get a permit then...

[tcott]

I think adding "red permits" to the online system would also be a big improvement. What is the point of printing permits from home if I still have to drive to zion the day before just to get permission to park in the canyon before the shuttles are running?

[Iceaxe]

That's true for individuals, not groups.

I would also have no problem with groups pulling permits... your group of 4 gets one lottery ticket and if you draw out you can only get a permit for 4, which would stop the cheating of splitting into 2 groups.

But I believe that system might be a little tougher to police and I'm hoping to make life easier on every one....

I'm good with every indivdual gets an even chance or every group gets an even chance...

And speaking of making life easier on everyone.... wouldn't this also be easier on the rangers? There would no longer be a need to continually monitor the permit window and issue tickets for those camping as opposed to those waiting in line. Creating the numbers to drop in the hat means cutting up a preprinted sheet filled with numbers.... that takes a whole 2 minutes.