Subway Permits

[UtahAdventureGuide]

Did the Subway on Friday and was asked to show our permit 4 times. Once before we even pulled into the parking lot. Twice inside the canyon, and again when we exited. One of the rangers was on a serious power trip and was very demanding. Do they really issue enough citations to justify the salaries and new SUVs for all these rangers? or is this just another example of government control and waste? I just think this permit system is a complete joke.

[Deathcricket]

What parts of the canyon? Not that I ever poach canyon and want to avoid them.

[nat]

Did the Subway on Friday and was asked to show our permit 4 times.

I just think this permit system is a complete joke.

I suspect that less that 1% of bogleyites would disagree with you.

Nat

[2065toyota]

and if they stop issuing permits will you complain that there are too many people there to enjoy it

[Felicia]

I suspect that less that 1% of bogleyites would disagree with you.

Nat

I disagree. I think that there needs to be a control system in place to limit access to The Subway.

Just imagine what the place would be like if anyone could go anytime. As is, on a nice day, it's hard to take a picture without strangers in the frame.

If you don't like the current permit system, tale a proactive roll in

[Felicia]

...dang iPhone.

Question for the haters of the permit system: how would you manage The Subway if you were NPS???

[Spidey]

...dang iPhone.

Question for the haters of the permit system: how would you manage The Subway if you were NPS???

REALLY??? That has been debated and covered at nauseum on this forum and every other forum!! Plenty of great ideas out there, but Zion won't hear any of it.

[Felicia]

REALLY??? That has been debated and covered at nauseum on this forum and every other forum!! Plenty of great ideas out there, but Zion won't hear any of it.

I recall mostly complaining............no solutions. I may have gotten buried in the complaining and missed the solutions. Given that we are going 10 miles an hour in horrible traffic 200 miles from home, I have plenty of time to surf the archives.

[Felicia]

Ok - an hour later and 65 miles closer to home; I've not read any solutions above and beyond "no permits".

[nat]

Ok - an hour later and 65 miles closer to home; I've not read any solutions above and beyond "no permits".

That sounds like a pretty good solution to me. Actually, I would be OK with keeping the permits but getting rid of the quotas. I remember when you had to get a permit, but they didn't restrict the numbers, at least for most canyons. No early morning lottery/line up. Sure, occasionally a canyon had a number of people, but it was mostly OK. They don't have quotas for all of the other non-technical day hikes (other than the narrows); I don't see why a hike requiring a rope all of a sudden makes it important to limit the numbers.

Nat

[Felicia]

I made an error last night in my last post: we went 6.5 miles in an hour. I had almost three extra hours to search the Bogely archives.

I see three distinct issues:

- the need for any permit system
- the nuances of physically obtaining a permit utilizing the current system
- the monitoring and enforcement of the current system.

Comments?

[UtahAdventureGuide]

I started canyoneering in Zion long before permits were required, The Subway was one of my first canyons. Being harassed by the backcountry rangers before, during, and after the canyon completely ruins the experience. I was about 20 minutes ahead of the member in our party who was holding the permit but was forced to stop and wait for them to catch up in order to show the permit. When we got out of the canyon we had to show our permit for the 4th time. Do they really need that many backcountry rangers in one canyon to enforce their flawed permit system?

[Osiris]

I actually did the Subway from the top down for the first time on Friday July 29th and didn't see a single ranger that day. While getting the permit was a fairly irritating event I didn't have any other issues than that. As far as the permit is concerned I happened to luck out that I grabbed the two permits available for that day. There were four guys ahead of me who had been there since the day before.

This was the first time I've done the canyon the one thing that bothered be was that the first guy in line was taking 11 permits and was only going to spend time at the bottom of the Subway while myself and numerous others wanted to go top-down. As far as the Subway is concerned I would personally like to see the permits split into different groups, those who want top-down permits and those who want permits for the bottom. Just my opinion though.

Anyways, had an absolute blast and the canyon was beautiful.

Anthony.

[Brian in SLC]

I dislike the permit system (greatly) too. I get that some hikes are best experienced without throngs and throngs of people. But, the Subway is someone self limiting in that it isn't viewable from the shuttle: you have to hike into it a fair ways. Too far for most people.

Having to get a permit but no quota would work for me. Then, at least they'd know how many folks a day really do it. Could also move the trailhead further away (ha ha). Or, do as "someone" suggested and pave the trail in there and let people just mob the place. You want solitude? Go in the off-peak hours: early or late. Otherwise, expect the masses.

Opening Goose Creek up again would help spread people out...

[Krrristi]

You want solitude? Go in the off-peak hours: early or late. Otherwise, expect the masses.

Opening Goose Creek up again would help spread people out...

Yes. Let's let hundreds of tourists traipse through the subway on a daily basis and see how long the pristine environment holds up. And screw research areas, let us trample that canyon too!

[Brian in SLC]

Meeeow!

We let hundreds of folks traipse through the Subway every other day. Do you really think they'll be much more damage to this "pristine" environment? I don't think the permit system has anything to do with the environment, per se, but, the "VE" in the "VERP".

As far as designating Goose Creek as an RNA...I'd have picked a canyon system that didn't get any traffic, versus a reasonably popular canyon route that was confined to the bottom of the watercourse. You think folks "trample" that environment? Really? Is there an erosion concern at the bottom of the canyon? Social trails? 'Cause, I just don't see that.


There's gobs of "pristine" areas in Zion that are fully off the radar and the permit system.

I roll my eyes at you too!

[dmMatrix]

My only real problem with the permit system is the way you get it. The whole lottery system. I remember my first time in the Subway, I was 12 years old and it was my family of 7 going through. My dad got us up at 4 in the bloody morning so we could get over to the station so that we wouldn't miss it this time. Two weeks before we barely missed getting in by the person in front of us.

Its been several years since I've been so maybe things are a little different but that system is pretty flawed IMO.

Also, I like the fact that it is limited because there are parts where younger participants (like myself at the time) get dominated by people behind you trying to rush through the canyon. Although, it sucks if you don't get a permit. It took quite while to get my whole family out of the canyon that day and several times there were some pretty rude people that just dove into the water next to us to pass us instead of waiting half a minute. If there were double the people I probably would have drowned someone.... or gotten drowned myself

[Scott Card]

Timing.... I posted this earlier today on the Canyons Yahoo Group in response to a post that RAM made.


Ahh, yes...Zion Park Rangers (start German accent now) Ranger: "Good Morgan, may I see your papers?" Me: (Utah Accent) "Have I done anything wrong?" Ranger: "No, well, maybe but I need your papers anyvay.... your permit to be on this land." Me: "That would be the land that I own as an American?" Ranger: "You own?....hahahahahahahahahah. Now give me your papers..."

It is so, so very un_American for the rangers to assume that we are law breakers. You see by approaching us, stopping us, demanding our papers, requires a reasonable suspicion that we are violating the law or are about to. At least in my world that is the law. Apparently that is not the case in the kingdom of Zion National Park. Perhaps that is also why they get away with a lottery in Utah too (haha). The permit system and the ranger contact really, really bothers me and significantly impacts MY wilderness experience. Think about how many times we are stopped or delayed just to hike a stinkin' canyon. Stop, pay money or show pass to enter Park. Stop, wait in line and waste a canyoneering day trying to obtain a permit. Stop, show your papers. Stop again and show papers at the exit of the canyon. Is there any wonder why canyons just outside the park are receiving more pressure? All to preserve my wilderness experience. Whatever. I could live with the entrance fee and even a reasonable permit system but quit treating me as a suspected criminal.
As Ram said, anyone listening in Zion????

Scott Card, Spelled S_c_o_t_t C_a_r_d
(Already on "the list" at the Park I am sure.)

(Waydago Ram, you got me all stirred up on Monday morning... ;_) )

[m cabourne]

I have issues with the permit system too....but consider this. We in So Cal have unlimited access to our local canyons. Eaton Canyon (popular for hiking and canyoneering) is the poster child for no regulation.
1. Everything from beer cans to pampers in the streambed.
2. Graffiti and social trails leading to dangerous hiking routes.
3. And, on a more serious note, 7 SAR activities during the past 7 days resulting in 2 deaths in separate incidences.

[Felicia]

I see three distinct issues:

- the need for any permit system

I'm hearing three positions:

1) No permits - what happens if the canyon becomes like a SoCal canyon?

2) No lottery

3) No changes in the current system

- the nuances of physically obtaining a permit utilizing the current system

Let's "assume" that the permit system is here to stay; any suggestions of how to adjust the current system to meet voiced concerns?

ie: If we are "responsible" for our own saftey, why can't we print the permit at the time of reservation? It should be "our responsibility" to use the permit wisely.

If we are going to see a ranger almost "everytime", do they just station one at the trailhead for certain hours? Seems faster than sitting at the backcountry desk?? iPads and radios should aid in field work.

- the monitoring and enforcement of the current system.

Hot Topic with lots of examples everywhere in the archives. But I'm looking for constructive suggestions to the Park? Sensitivity training? etc. How about us and our behaviour?

...............back to work. Thanks for all the responses and comments.