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Thread: Prints, File Size, and Image Quality

  1. #1

    Prints, File Size, and Image Quality

    I basically have no idea what I am doing here, so I am hoping someone can shed some light.

    I have my workflow for processing pictures, saving them, etc. I shoot with a T2i, so I have decently large files to start with. I want to get some good crisp prints, up to 20x30 or larger, and am struggling. Generally, the good images I could see myself ordering a large print of, I will keep as a TIFF that is about 100mb. My reasons for this... see the above comment about I have no idea. I just figured a 100mb TIFF would be lead to a better large print than a 14mb JPG, and I have no knowledge to back that up.

    So that brings me to my current situation. I have one of these 100mb prints and I want to order a 20x30 and a 16x20 from Adorama. There max file size is 60mb, so all I can think of is to get in Photoshop and change the image size until the file is below 60mb, but obviously that is reducing my quality. Then, in Adorama, they have a little scale that shows you the image quality by DPI (another concept that I probably dont understand as well as I should), and both of the images are about right in between "Fair - 100 DPI" and "Good - 300+ DPI".

    The whole reason I am keeping these larger files is so I can get closer to the "Good - 300+ DPI" end of it. I am not sure if my whole workflow is wrong/ineffective/pointless, or if I could be doing better at the resizing stage to reduce the file size but keep the image quality. I definitely think I am missing something since the max file size Adorama allows is 60, and I am sure there are people who have it figured out to get better quality large prints.

    Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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  3. #2
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    I've printed out quite a few larger prints. I just send a large jpg. file. I don't think it is necessary to send a tiff.

    The largest I have printed is 24"X36" with very good quality. My camera is also 18mp.

    Before sending out to Adorama, send a pic to Costco, then go pick it up, you might be surprised at the quality.

    I only use other sources when I want something slightly different, like metalic paper, canvas, etc.(don't really like Cotco's canvas.)

  4. #3
    Well it seems file type and size are not the only factors in image quality. This time, I took the same original TIFF (that was over 100mb), and rather than resizing it till it was below 60mb, I just saved it as a JPG. The JPG is 23mb compared to the 59mb TIFF, and it is also above 300 DPI compared to 120ish.

    This is progress, although I still wish I understood this stuff better. Does anyone know of any good books, webpages, or tutorials, that addresses this in any kind of significant depth? Or can explain it here? Not only for ordering prints that turn out better, but if I could figure this out, and find if I am keeping huge TIFF files for no reason at all, that would be nice to know as well.
    "Human beings were not meant to sit in little cubicles staring at computer screens all day, filling out useless forms and listening to eight different bosses drone on about mission statements"

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  5. #4
    I'm not an expert by any means, but perhaps this article might help you on your way, and it's free.

    http://photo.net/learn/raw/
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  6. #5
    tiff's are just for local hard drives... :) tiff's are uncompressed and lossless, so you can rework them later without damaging the pixels. send in JPGs for prints. there is no visible difference. the difference happens when you save a jpg multiple times, and the image starts to get compressed and lose detail. if you save it just once from a TIFF, it will be perfect.

  7. #6
    thanks for the link and the info. i read through it and it did answer some questions.

    so my revised theory is that yes, keeping a TIFF file has some advantages, although for printing, there is no need to send a huge TIFF file. what about if i have processed my images to my satisfaction, is there still a need to keep the huge file? what about keeping it as a TIFF, but compressing it to save space?
    "Human beings were not meant to sit in little cubicles staring at computer screens all day, filling out useless forms and listening to eight different bosses drone on about mission statements"

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  8. #7
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    I'm guilty--I never re-use memory cards, I save them all. Kinda weird, I know, but.............

  9. #8
    i thought i was on to something, and wanted to see what would happen using one of the TIFF compressions. the ZIP compression took 102mb down to 96, and the LZW turned 102 into 128mb...
    "Human beings were not meant to sit in little cubicles staring at computer screens all day, filling out useless forms and listening to eight different bosses drone on about mission statements"

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  10. #9
    All of my file printing involves artwork that I have created so I am not taking the pictures myself so I don't know about that but... I do export Many Many Many files into Jpg format. For all of the printing I do, Exporting into a jpg has no data loss. CarpyBiggs nailed it on the head there. I work with files that are upwards into 100 - 200 MB and when I export them into JPG they end up about 20 MB and lower.... sometimes as low as 1 - 5 MB depending on what I am doing.

    As far as the DPI goes, 300 DPI is about right for color prints from what I understand. Black and white, particularly text.... I would run a bit higher. Some printers will say that they run 1200 DPI on color prints but I don't really see a need for that at all. But, then again, I also don't work with anything much larger than 5X7 and the like.... so, maybe the rules change when you get larger.
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  11. #10
    Outdoorsman gnwatts's Avatar
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    Don't throw away your TIFF's!
    Save the largest non-compressed TIFF file you can, in addition to your original unaltered RAW file.
    I keep my original numbered file #, so the TIFF and the RAW files have the same file name and end up together when searched.

  12. #11
    Listen to gnwatts! Also, if you want very high quality prints, go to a professional lab. Printing is not just a point and click operation. Pro labs have extreme tolerances and understand what a fine art print looks like. Yes, you will pay a little more, but if you want to make a 20x30 to hang on your wall, don't you want the highest quality print you can afford? I'm not a computer whiz, but all other files types other than TIFF or PSD are not lossless, so there will be minor degradation of the files. Most pro labs will take TIFF files, which is typically what I print from. I'm a big fan of Lightjet prints. They are true photographic prints. I've never liked inkjets. They typically exhibit surface variation due to the inks. They can also off gas from the ink as well. Everyone will have their own preferences, but I suggest you give a lab like Photocraft, or Reed a try. I've also been using H&H which does accept JPEG's. Its tough to see a big difference between TIFF's and JPEG's. Also, typically pro labs have no file size restriction. I print 40x50's that are 500 mb TIFF's.

  13. #12
    For our photography company, I edit all of our RAW images in Lightroom and then export a jpeg of the edited image. When I make prints I will open the file in Photoshop, crop it to the size I want at 300dpi. Then you always want to sharpen it for the size that you just cropped it to. Then save the file and send it to print. We use WHCC for all our prints. They have free 2 day shipping and we have never had any type of problem with them. I have printed up to 24x36 like this with great results.

  14. #13
    Outdoorsman gnwatts's Avatar
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    The only time I save to JPEG is when it is for the web, and when I have to send a client an image, usually the largest JPEG. I rarely send anyone a 16 bit TIFF, as that is essentially your "original" image. I always print from a 16bit TIFF and I do my own printing, so I have no experience with printing from lage JPEG's.
    A 1000gb external drive can be had for about $100, which is pretty cheap. Why save the image to JPEG (unless you are sharing it)? if your computer can handle a large file, storage is cheap and easy to obtain? I hate having multiple copies of an individual image (RAW, TIFF, JPEG). more to manage. My workflow is pretty simple: Upload image to a RAW storage file (then immediately copy to 2 separate external drives), bring the RAW file into Aperture, adjust, save as a 16 bit TIFF to a "Print" storage file. (on the hard external drives). Then I open it in PS to print. For the web, I import to my website a JPEG directly from the modified RAW file in Aperture. For me, this system has a couple of advantages. I have an un-modified RAW file stored on 3 separate hard drives, and a large TIFF file for printng stored on 2 external hard drives. I have had several major catastrophes avoided by having at least 2 external hard drives. Also, buy a good battery back up, if your electrical grid is as crazy as ours, lightening, surges etc. Saved my ass several times this summer. But I cooked an external drive I accidentally plugged into the wall! Lesson learned.
    Edit: I never erase my images on the camera until all the shots have been stored on the external drives.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Before sending out to Adorama, send a pic to Costco, then go pick it up, you might be surprised at the quality.

    I only use other sources when I want something slightly different, like metalic paper, canvas, etc.(don't really like Cotco's canvas.)
    I was surprised at Costco's quality too. So dang cheap I thought "no way".
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  16. #15
    Does anyone use any online storage? I would like to have stuff backed up on a hard drive and online
    "Human beings were not meant to sit in little cubicles staring at computer screens all day, filling out useless forms and listening to eight different bosses drone on about mission statements"

    Peter Gibbons - Office Space

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by DWayne27 View Post
    Does anyone use any online storage? I would like to have stuff backed up on a hard drive and online
    Flickr is pretty economical for backing up high res JPEG's. Unlimited uploads and storage for $24 per year and you decide what is public or private and whether the full res is available or not. I'm up to 4,756 full res jpegs on there now. At avg 5MB per image that's like 22 gigs of storage for $2 per month.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ibenick View Post
    Flickr is pretty economical for backing up high res JPEG's. Unlimited uploads and storage for $24 per year and you decide what is public or private and whether the full res is available or not. I'm up to 4,756 full res jpegs on there now. At avg 5MB per image that's like 22 gigs of storage for $2 per month.
    I never thought of using Flickr as online storage...that is an interesting concept. I have and onsite backup external drive and an offsite external drive but I might have to try the Flickr thing. Only thing is, I've got about 80k images I would have to load up on there... It is very easy to do from Lightroom though with the Flickr plug-in. Do you know if they have a storage limit? I think I'd have close to 1TB of files...

  19. #18
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    I use Google Photos, $20 a year for 80GB of data. It has the same features that ibenick was saying about Flickr too. Plus you can choose if you want to upload the original file size or smaller compressed sizes.

    Not to mention, the storage on google inlcludes uploading of any file type, including exe. Which I use to backup some of the software I use.

    Either service, can't go wrong.
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  20. #19
    has anyone used Carbonite for online storage (www.carbonite.com)? I've been considering using that when I finally get my stuff organized (in 5 or 6 years )

  21. #20
    Outdoorsman gnwatts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jman View Post
    I use Google Photos, $20 a year for 80GB of data. It has the same features that ibenick was saying about Flickr too. Plus you can choose if you want to upload the original file size or smaller compressed sizes.

    Not to mention, the storage on google inlcludes uploading of any file type, including exe. Which I use to backup some of the software I use.

    Either service, can't go wrong.
    That's seems pretty expensive.
    You can buy 1000 gigs for $100 and your stuff is right there with an external drive. I can see an advantage in off site storage if you are worried about theft, water or fire damage.
    I guess it could only go wrong if you need the image and you don't have the internet.

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