Figure 8 block with lower

[canyoncaver]

Oh yeah, Re-rig... not very difficult.

T

Agreed, again. We have already established that anything is easy to rig once you have it dialed. I was just pointing out to those watching that the munter requires one more rigging step in order to pull down. The releasable 8 does not. It is ready to go.

Whether or not you consider it very difficult to rig each drop twice is beside the point. It is extra work which can eat up time, and adds another chance for error.

[Deathcricket]

Thanks Kurty. YES, I think the Cricket of Death is ready to accept some training. A delicate point in a canyoneer's evolution. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh. (don't let him know we know)

I'm always ready to accept training and increase my bag of tricks. I still use the stone knot trick you showed me to this day.

This trick just especially seems nice. I take noobs through canyons all the time and because they don't wear helmets, their hair is always getting stuck in the descender. This seems like a faster rescue that rapping down the other line.

Let me know when you have time and we'll get together and demonstrate.

Thanks bro! I'm almost always free on weekends, let's do a couple canyons sometime.

[oldno7]

I'm always ready to accept training and increase my bag of tricks. I still use the stone knot trick you showed me to this day.

This trick just especially seems nice. I take noobs through canyons all the time and because they don't wear helmets, their hair is always getting stuck in the descender. This seems like a faster rescue that rapping down the other line.



Thanks bro! I'm almost always free on weekends, let's do a couple canyons sometime.

I'll be at Powell again this weekend, the following one might work.
I think we could get a small group to do Benson almost anytime.
Does your wife go, or would she be interested in visiting here in the "hometown"

[ratagonia]

I'm always ready to accept training and increase my bag of tricks. I still use the stone knot trick you showed me to this day.

I take beginners down canyons all the time too, and NONE of them ever go without a helmet (well, very few exceptions at least). Last noob I took down without a helmet was a certain S. Jackson, friend of Scott Card...

Tom

[ratagonia]

I'm always ready to accept training and increase my bag of tricks. I still use the stone knot trick you showed me to this day.

Try to get Kurty to show you how to convert that Stone Knot into a lower.

Except in Class C, I rarely go direct to a contingency anchor. I think this is responsible because I am well-practiced in the conversion.

Tom

[oldno7]

DC
Just need to know, when we go commando style, should I bring the stainless AR15 or the fully waterproof AA12?

[Iceaxe]

How many of you use a figure 8 for a block with the ability to lower a beginner if he/she get someting jammed in the rappel (hair, fingers, clothing caught in descendeur).

If I'm that concerned about my beginners I prefer a top rope belay.... anyone novice enough to get hair, clothing or fingers caught and not know how to self rescue are novice enough to do other dumb things like let go of the rope with their rappel hand.

If I'm with beginners I want the ability to assume complete control of their actions instantly.... YMMV...

[Deathcricket]

DC
Just need to know, when we go commando style, should I bring the stainless AR15 or the fully waterproof AA12?

Oh dude, AA12 for sure, haha. yeah my wife goes as long as it isn't a huge trek. So if Benson is under 5ish miles she'll go. Otherwise Just me :)

[oldno7]

Oh dude, AA12 for sure, haha. yeah my wife goes as long as it isn't a huge trek. So if Benson is under 5ish miles she'll go. Otherwise Just me :)

Sounds like she's in.............

[Spidey]

I take beginners down canyons all the time too, and NONE of them ever go without a helmet (well, very few exceptions at least). Last noob I took down without a helmet was a certain S. Jackson, friend of Scott Card...

Tom

Hey Hey Hey, I resemble that name. If we are keeping score I was far from a noob, just new to you. Plus I was still only 24 and invincible! All right I'm still invincible, but a little smarter. FWIW being a climber the only time I wore a helmet was Aid climbing, and ice climbing, I didn't think canyoneering warranted a helmet. I feel very differently now. I have taken many noobs over the years, and they too all wear helmets. I must throw out a thanks to Tom for being the first person to make me think about wearing a helmet canyoneering, and why.

[Scott Card]

Last noob I took down without a helmet was a certain S. Jackson, friend of Scott Card...

Tom

No not no noob no mo (say that five times fast) ..... if he ever was one.

The first of several great Freezefests. Good times.

[ratagonia]

Hey Hey Hey, I resemble that name. If we are keeping score I was far from a noob, just new to you. Plus I was still only 24 and invincible! All right I'm still invincible, but a little smarter. FWIW being a climber the only time I wore a helmet was Aid climbing, and ice climbing, I didn't think canyoneering warranted a helmet. I feel very differently now. I have taken many noobs over the years, and they too all wear helmets. I must throw out a thanks to Tom for being the first person to make me think about wearing a helmet canyoneering, and why.

And you were entirely gracious about it. A fun moment.

Steve: "I can just downclimb that..."
Tom: "Yes, you could. IF you were wearing a helmet. But you're not so I guess you will have to rappel."
Steve: "Uh... but... uh... ... ... ... Okay."

[spinesnaper]

DC
Just need to know, when we go commando style, should I bring the stainless AR15 or the fully waterproof AA12?

I believe the Supreme Court now allows us to be properly armed in the National Park. That'll keep law and order in the park. One could have the first armed descent down Heaps. Just use express permits otherwise you will have to park your weapon in the plexiglass box on the doors outside the wilderness desk. Helmet, I don't need no stinking helmet.

Ken

[moabmatt]

If I'm that concerned about my beginners I prefer a top rope belay.... anyone novice enough to get hair, clothing or fingers caught and not know how to self rescue are novice enough to do other dumb things like let go of the rope with their rappel hand.

If I'm with beginners I want the ability to assume complete control of their actions instantly.... YMMV...

With these folks you shouldn't have a preference, rather you should consider both a top belay and contingency. If someone gets their hair caught, they'll appreciate immediate relief. This is not easy to provide if you simply provide a top belay. It takes time to set up a raise and if the belay rope is running around corners or over long sloping ledges you may not have the oomph to pull up enough to get their weight off the rappel rope easily. With a top belay and contingency, if someone gets hair caught you simply hold the belay rope and release the contingency and lower them a foot or two onto the belay rope. Relief comes to them in just a second or two.

Plus, if they are noobs then they're likely bouncing the hell out of your rope, swaying side to side and otherwise grating your rope over edges. Having a contingency allows you to change the wear points on the rope very easily and quickly between rappellers. This is especially important with large groups.

[ewestesen]

Try to get Kurty to show you how to convert that Stone Knot into a lower.

Except in Class C, I rarely go direct to a contingency anchor. I think this is responsible because I am well-practiced in the conversion.

Tom

I didn't know a stone knot could be quickly converted to a lower- but I did some searching on here and you say [with practice] it can be done in 30 seconds?

I've seen some ZAC guides using the stone knot when guiding, and I just assumed their backup plan was a pickoff...

Maybe I should have searched longer, but is this conversion shown/explained anywhere on here?

If not, I'll wait until I see Rob guiding in Birch when he and I are both stuck behind a group of 30 people, and I'll see if he can show it to me!
If not I'll have to sit down with Rob next time I run into him in Birch and we're both stuck behind a group of 30 people.

[ratagonia]

I didn't know a stone knot could be quickly converted to a lower- but I did some searching on here and you say [with practice] it can be done in 30 seconds?

I've seen some ZAC guides using the stone knot when guiding, and I just assumed their backup plan was a pickoff...

Maybe I should have searched longer, but is this conversion shown/explained anywhere on here?

If not, I'll wait until I see Rob guiding in Birch when he and I are both stuck behind a group of 30 people, and I'll see if he can show it to me!
If not I'll have to sit down with Rob next time I run into him in Birch and we're both stuck behind a group of 30 people.

It's the same conversion as anything else. Helps if the knot is right close to the anchor.

That was Calvin... if you were there last Sunday. Weekends in Birch Hollow are WILD these days. I was there with my class on Monday, and we saw no other people in the canyon.

Pickoff is the LAST tool in the rescue kit. Complex, slow, and places the rescuer at risk. Last Choice.

Tom

[ewestesen]

Huh. Nothing fancy then? You have to get the weight off the knot and then switch it out with something to lower on- I don't think I'm good enough to do that in 30 seconds. I've done it in practice, but not enough. I guess I need to practice it about a hundred times so I can get faster at it.

I did see Calvin on Sunday, which was a lot of fun. Rob is the one I run into most often though. (edit: it is ALSO fun to run into Rob, but as my run-ins with Calvin are more rare I perceive them as more fun)

[unripecoconut]

I’ve noticed that there are a few different ways to do a figure 8 contingency block. The style noted at the beginning of this thread can be found on the canyonquest site (http://canyonquest.com/~steve/cerberuscanyons.com/tech/007_eightrelease/tech_007_release8.html). The Petzl canyon guide has a different method that seems better. I had been using another block altogether and am in the process of switching to a modified version of the Petzl block (yet to try it).

Question: These all seem to “hold” a block. Which is the best method?

I may be stating the obvious here – in the photos below, the left side is the rope bag (standing) side of the rope and the right side is the rappelling (working) side.


A) Above is the “canyonquest” version of a figure 8 contingency block and shown on this thread. Notice that the right side is really not much of an X. It goes right out to the rapide.


B) Above is the Petzl version of a figure 8 contingency block. Notice that the right side goes into an X almost immediately and it looks clean. This one seems better since the right side locks down tight leaving the standing rope to be more easily loosened. There is no twist in the last loop. To make this block, you need to take the standing rope and first wrap it behind the left side rope (to create that X) before pushing it through for the final loop.


C) Here is the Petzl version with a twist. This one feels more secure and is what I will likely switch to.


D) I may need to call this What Not To Do. It’s still in testing. The way to make it is to treat the figure 8 as if you were doing a temporary lock off on rappel (rotate the standing rope so that it is between the rappel rope and the figure 8 device). Then you push the rope through, give it a twist and set it. While it’s super easy to remember, it locks down hard and seems tougher to get into lower mode.

NOTE: I use a canyon quickdraw on a block like this. Yes, it is slower and can get left behind if the last person is not paying attention. It is insurance against someone rapping down the wrong side of the rope.

I’d love to understand which version you use and why.

Cheers,

.Miles

[ratagonia]

I think the real question is how easy are they to release under tension and switch to a lower. That is the point, after all.

Tom

[unripecoconut]

I think the real question is how easy are they to release under tension and switch to a lower. That is the point, after all.

Can we assume they are all equally safe blocks? I would think some may be safer on different thicknesses of rope (11mm down to 6mm). Some may transition easier yet not work well with less flexible static ropes. Some may even act differently under heavier loads. I honestly do not know the answer because I have not used any of them long enough to know.

[Results I found with very supple 11mm rope as of 5/1/12]
A) Canyonquest style - locks down and does not release well under load. If the last twist is reversed (counterclockwise) it releases MUCH better
B) Petzl type - releases very well. one last tug is needed to go into full belay.
C) Petzl with clockwise twist - releases well (only slightly harder than B).
D) This Lock actually releases well ONLY if the last twist is not put in. one last tug is needed to go into full belay.

I do not like these types of blocks - releasability and slippage seem to vary depending on the position of the figure 8.