Permits

[gnwatts]

I have been following an interesting thread in the canyoneering area of Bogley about Imlay, which evolved into a broader discussion about government and it's involvement with managing public lands.
I am not a "canyoneer", but I like to backpack. And I to do most of my backpacking on Cedar Mesa. This issue has been on my mind for a long time.
When I first started backpacking there, we would get the free permit and visit the ranger, enquire about water, a route etc. After a few years we no longer felt the need to stop at the rangers trailer, as we always planned for the worst in terms of water, and because of our gaining knowledge of the area did not feel we needed advice about routes, preferring to "wing it" and discover for ourselves which was the best way into a canyon, not minding getting stuck 75' above a wash and climbing back out to find a way that would go.
Then one day I got a ticket from the BLM, on the windshield of my car @ Pt. lookout, explaining that we did not pay the "fee". WTF? we collectively yelled. The ticket was quickly torn up. We stopped at the trailer, the ranger said they would waive the ticket as it was a new policy. We told him it didn't matter, as we ripped it up anyway. He kind of laughed. We asked him why the need to pay to hike on our own collectively owned federal land. He said visitation is up, need more people. He said they needed a new building. You do? we asked. This trailer, It's uncomfortable, and small. I asked him why they just didn't get a bigger, nicer trailer, as a trailers footprint and damage to the land is far less than a building. No, he said, it was a done deal, brand new fancy concrete block building, plenty of room, AC, indoor heat and nice counter tops.
Over the following years we stopped visiting the ranger, and ignored the tickets (I have been ticketed over 50 times, never has the BLM tried to collect). I always made sure someone knew where we were going, so we never felt the need to let the ranger know.

Then one day it happened.

Driving by the Grand Gulch "Primitive" Area sign we were horrified to see a 7-11, or was it a Kum&Go? An abomination had been erected on land we considered sacred. As a former architect I think that all land is sacred, and placing a building on it is a great responsibility. This was desecration, an insult to the sensitive and wonderful buildings that the Anasazi built (and left us to learn from) Ha!
Anyway, the place was closed as it was in January.
Around that time the State of Utah started bulldozing the "roads" in the area to attempt to gain rights of way from the federal government (and placing handy unneeded signs). Now any car could access areas that were previously hard or impossible to get to. More people can visit these areas now!
The road to Moonhouse Ruin, formerly closed from the drill pipe/parking area to Mcloyds canyon rim was opened. In the past, A pleasant easy 3 mile hike along that road was required to reach the canyon. Visitation was sporadic. The first time I visited in march 1984 the last person that signed the "book" was 2 months earlier. Similar visitation patterns held up over the following years, obviously higher visitation during spring and fall. Now you can drive right to the rim. There are signs about the increased visitation and damage. I wonder why.
It's a viscous circle.

I am a certified left wing looney toon (card carrying member), but on certain things I trend toward a libertarian. I have steadfastly refused for the last 15 years to pay or "sign in" or "sign up" for a permit on Cedar Mesa. I would like to know other peoples position on this.
Fight the Man.

[Deathcricket]

My opinion is pretty well known from the other thread, so won't chime in, hehe. Just wanted to say I loved your post and found it well written and easy to understand your viewpoint. In short, I like the way you communicated. Typing out a post on the fly (I'm sure most people are doing this in between work tasks) is a lost art and I truly enjoyed reading about your personal experience(s). Keep posts like this coming and hopefully this will be a great thread. I think mine is turning into a disaster.

[ibenick]

Dude. 50 tickets and they haven't tried to collect? Awesome!

I'm with ya on this for the most part. Especially after a recent phone call I got from the NPS telling me they wanted me to take a bunch of photos and information off of a trip report on my website. But I suppose the more it becomes like Disneyland the more measures have to be put in place to protect it from the hordes of idiots though. Not an easy answer. I'm definitely all about keeping some of those roads closed and making the hike a bit longer though.

[ibenick]

One more thing. On a related note I'm working on a 5-page paper about the Coyote Buttes permit lottery for a final project in a statistics class I'm in. Not done with it yet but it involved hounding the hell out of the BLM to get statistics for the lottery which they eventually gave. Pretty interesting to start crunching the numbers and see how many people would be out there if they weren't limiting access. Or maybe no one would care if it wasn't so hard to get?? Hmmm...

[gnwatts]

Thanks deathcricket.

Dude. 50 tickets and they haven't tried to collect? Awesome! .

I threw them away when i had 30, so I have interpolated the 50. But I get them every time I go, maybe 5 times a year. I have no Idea why they have not tried to collect. Maybe now they will. Oops.
They wanted you to remove photos from your website? Fascists!
Edit: I only get tickets when i park at the main parking areas. So not evrey time.

[Pelon1]

One more thing. On a related note I'm working on a 5-page paper about the Coyote Buttes permit lottery for a final project in a statistics class I'm in. Not done with it yet but it involved hounding the hell out of the BLM to get statistics for the lottery which they eventually gave. Pretty interesting to start crunching the numbers and see how many people would be out there if they weren't limiting access. Or maybe no one would care if it wasn't so hard to get?? Hmmm...

are you going to post the paper here when it is finished? Sounds like an interesting read.

[middlefork]

It is amazing with the information now days how popular areas can become. Back when I was climbing the Tetons were regulated and crowded. We sourced out a relatively unknown area at the time and started doing trips there. The first few years we could go there for nine days and maybe see one or two people the whole time.

Then the Sierra Club decided the only way to save wilderness was to make it popular so more voices were heard. They put signs on the highway to show the turnoff to the trailhead. At the trail head they put up signs showing the mileage to different places. They made sure everyone could easily find their way and then published it.

They next year we were greeted by nearly 50 people coming to see what the area was all about.

The area? Wind Rivers Cirque of the Towers.

Happens in everything. You didn't need permits to run rivers until everybody started loving it to death.

While I love to read the trip reports on here and see all the neat places to go. Sometimes I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

[ibenick]

are you going to post the paper here when it is finished? Sounds like an interesting read.

Hmm... depends on how well it turns out I guess. I have the paper mostly written, just have to put in all the fancy charts and such. Maybe next week.

While I love to read the trip reports on here and see all the neat places to go. Sometimes I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

As a frequent producer of trip reports I have wondered the same thing. I justify it by believing that if everything was published it would once again be on an even playing field, as if nothing was published. So personally, I want to publish everything I can. And if everyone is going where I've already been, that means there should be less people where I go next.

[gnwatts]

We took a 6 day trip in 1979 to the Tetons, up Death Canyon around to the Alaskan Basin and down Cascade canyon. While I had backpacked along the John Muir Trail near Mammoth, I was not prepared to tell the ranger where we would camp on what day, making reservations. We ended up camping where we wanted.

I agree about trip reports. I try not to be too specific, let people figure out how to get down a cliff etc. Everyone has the right to fall off a cliff.

For about 5 years I signed in at all trail registers with alias's, "Richard Nixon", "Rudolf the Red" (too cliche), but I settled on "Robert Redford and his hairdresser Sergio". Just to throw the MAN off.
Now I don't sign in. We go in ninja style, under the cover of darkness.

[uintahiker]

Geat thread

Have to agree with nick- publish everything!

Also gotta say that the over-regulation of everything is not cool at all. I guess the BLM employees have got to justify their employment?

[gnwatts]

I don't see why I should have to tell a ranger where I am going and for how long, and pay for the privilege, so they can afford their new "visitors center". My tax dollars and my traffic tickets to San Juan County should be enough to run Grand Gulch. If not, I'd gladly pay more taxes to help wilderness and primitive areas pay their bills.

[uintahiker]

I don't see why I should have to tell a ranger where I am going and for how long, and pay for the privilege, so they can afford their new "visitors center". My tax dollars and my traffic tickets to San Juan County should be enough to run Grand Gulch. If not, I'd gladly pay more taxes to help wilderness and primitive areas pay their bills.

But where else are they going to put their new backcountry desk?
The way I see it is visitor centers attract the kind of people that rangers don't want back in the backcountry. You're more likely to be a beginner who says "Ooh, a new visitor center, what could that be for?" Then they stop by, go for a little hike, then die because they're in flip-flops and don't bring water. It also increases visitation to the exact same area they're supposedly trying to protect. Seems pretty counterproductive to me. If you're an experienced hiker/backpacker that leaves trip plans- including contingencies- with somebody, there's no reason let the rangers know you're there.

[Jammer]

What an interesting "Monkey Wrench" of a thread.

I too have mixed feelings when posting trip reports for that very reason mentioned. But... I am thankful for those who went before me and pointed me in the right direction via posts/books/etc. I like to believe people will be respectful of the land. At the same time... some of my best memories are while "finding my own way" like gnwatss says.

I will say that in general I'm for the permit system to limit the strain on the resource and make my experience more enjoyable (albeit with a little more planning.) Coyote Buttes is such a PAIN to plan, but I can't imagine visiting it with a Angel's Landing type crowd present.

I'm ok with small use fees if it stops the BLM from leasing the land to undesireables and/or raises overall taxes. But, yeah... please fewer buildings, paved roads, signs, etc.

My 2cents.

- Jamal

[gnwatts]

I will say that in general I'm for the permit system to limit the strain on the resource and make my experience more enjoyable (albeit with a little more planning.) Coyote Buttes is such a PAIN to plan, but I can't imagine visiting it with a Angel's Landing type crowd present.

I'm ok with small use fees if it stops the BLM from leasing the land to undesireables and/or raises overall taxes. But, yeah... please fewer buildings, paved roads, signs, etc.

My 2cents.

- Jamal

A couple of thoughts/observations:
How does the permit system at Grand Gulch "limit the strain on the resource"? As I have never been at the ranger's secure bunker, do they allocate permitees to areas that are less crowded? For instance, you want to go in Bullet and out Kane, do the rangers say no, too crowded (like in the Tetons), you can go in Government trail, or you have to go to Road or Slickhorn instead? I am assuming it is voluntary (i may be wrong), they suggest where you can go. The BLM does not need a permit system if it is completely voluntary.
The BLM can't lease land on Cedar Mesa that is in a Primitive area, or areas that are study areas. What is the "use fee" for? Like I said, my taxes and other county "use taxes" should cover the BLM's operating budget, without the need to take your money and keep track of you.