Best rope for Euro style canyoning? Running water...single strand...Piranha...

[shagdeuce]

For short rappels, single strand Canyon Fire, I usually go the 2 setting on the Pirana and it is fine. For longer rappels, I add an off-side leg loop re-direct biner. Super long, I add a biner to the eye of the Pirana and go Z-Rig.

I use a Canyon Fire primarily. Did pine creek wet this spring. Did a block on the last rap (100') with a Pirana. After looking at the Pirana manual (to check whether I was doing "1" or "2"), it looks like I was doing the friction setting wrong, but I just had the rope around the top horn (without the bottom) making sure the rope didn't hop out with my free hand. Anyways, the friction was perfect even with the wet rope. I had a leg biner ready in case, but I didn't need it.

[Deathcricket]

You make it sound like there are no options past "2" on the Pirana. I hope your level of skill is higher than that. Then again, if it is not, perhaps you should stick to the double-strand technique.

Isn't there like 5 settings? Not sure what you mean by "2". But no I haven't tried a z rig yet. I have a Petzl stop which I would prefer over that, I can't imagine starting out with that friction setting and getting it over the edge. But ATM I set it to the last one in this picture, and like I said it works fine but I would RATHER use the canyonero, set if for a medium setting and be able to increase on the horns if I needed to, rather than a biner. Just personal opinion though.

[Deathcricket]

Also I'm just looking at the picture I posted and it seems to indicate you are not even supposed to use smaller than 9mm on it unless it's double stranded, which you can go down to 8mm. Am I reading this right?

[mdd]

Suggestions for area classics too, if anyone has any!

Mascun, for sure, in the Sierra de Guara.

www.descente-canyon.com/canyoning/canyon/2800/Mascun.html

Not sure about conditions when you are going, but if they are good...

It's a few hours drive from Barcelona but there are a lot of quality canyons in that area. On the drive stop at the Montserrat monastary, which is a also a climbing area (a bit run out...). Find the monastary and hike upstream and there is a nifty slot you can climb up. Not a classic by any means but a nice place to visit altogether, and spend the night if you can swing it. Their old wine cellar restaurant has the best croissants outside of France...

M

[moabmatt]

For short rappels, single strand Canyon Fire, I usually go the 2 setting on the Pirana and it is fine. For longer rappels, I add an off-side leg loop re-direct biner. Super long, I add a biner to the eye of the Pirana and go Z-Rig.

I've been slow to adopt - in fact, probably won't adopt if I haven't by now - the newer, more expensive devices like the Pirana or ATS. A $10 Figure 8 is my preference. Obviously, I'm not against the commercialization of canyoneering, but lately it seems that gear manufacturers are jumping on the canyoneering bandwagon and there's a trend towards overdesigning gear just to be different and to sell. Do you really need a $40 descender when a $10 Figure 8 works as well? I've yet to see anything out there that is worth the added cost to a simple Figure 8. To me, Tom's post here says it all. The additional $30 that was spent to acquire the design "improvements" of the Pirana aren't even being used. His methods for adding friction work just the same as if he was on a $10 Figure 8. Not to mention the so called "floating disconnect" benefit of the Pirana won't work any better when used this way than if you were to use a straight Figure 8 (in this setup the disconnect is actually harder with a Pirana than with a regular 8). So why spend the extra $$?

Also bear in mind that the longer rappels require less friction from your descender, not more. Of course, it is nice to be able to add friction lower down the longer raps, mainly because your arm gets tired and because of the stretch in the rope. Technically, the last 20' of a 200' rappel has no less friction than a 20' rappel. It's just that the stretch in the 180' of rope above you tries to whip the remaining rope below you through your descender. That's where the additional friction on your descender is nice to have. Whether you use the horns of a Pirana or a leg loop biner is a personal choice. If the Pirana is truly advantageous for someone, great, but I think most folks buy expensive gear without first knowing how to use any gear. Additional money spent on superfluous gear is not a substitute for lack of experience. No offense, but that video showed a great example of how an expensive device wasn't used properly.

Regarding ropes and Class C, I use 8mm Imlay for personal use and 3/8" HTP for guiding. I use an ABC Figure 8 and rap single strand whenever possible. Keep in mind that if the rope is running down the watercourse in a decent flow of water then you're gonna have a lot of friction just from the falling water pulling on the rope (like having an overzealous bottom belayer). That 100' waterfall rap is gonna have more friction than a 100' dry rap, all other things being equal. As a result I find that I use lower friction settings in the wet canyons than the dry. Also, you tend to wanna go faster in the wet stuff, anyway, what with all that water pounding on you.

As for floating disconnects, unless you're chaining two or more potholed sections together then there's no need for a floating disconnect. Simply set the rope length and rap off the end. Even if you are chaining potholes together, a floating disconnect with a regular 8 is no more difficult (and can actually be easier) than with a Pirana. Let's first assume there's no current in the pool between raps and you're not wearing any floatation device. With a Pirana you have to use one hand to open the gate while the other pulls the rope out (forget the one-handed exit that's been alluded to - that just ain't happening. You need both hands here). This isn't too bad, but you will be sinking and it's not always easy to grab that rope and get it around the nose of the carabiner. Keep in mind that you cannot rely so much on the rope above you to hold you out of the water since you must give yourself slack to get the rope in the biner around its nose. You will be sinking and that makes it more difficult. Now, with a regular Figure 8 you rap to the pool and hold on to the Figure 8 with one hand (which prevents you from sinking) while unclipping the carabiner from the Figure 8. Since the rope does not run through the carabiner with a Figure 8 you need not give yourself slack to unclip (hence, no sinking). Once the 8 is off the carabiner you flip the 8 over, clip the large ring of the 8 into the carabiner, then unhook the rope from the little ring. This way you won't lose the 8 should you let go of it before it gets clipped back into your carabiner. The fact that the 8 stays on the rope just above the pool gives you something to hold onto and steady yourself while you are unclipping, flipping and reclipping the carabiner. This ability, which you do not have with the Pirana, greatly facilitates the floating disconnect.

[hank moon]

Since the rope does not run through the carabiner with a Figure 8 you need not give yourself slack to unclip

On really wet (flowing) raps, the rope should run through the carabiner. Many drowning deaths and accidents have occurred due to mid-rap girth hitching.

[ratagonia]

I've been slow to adopt - in fact, probably won't adopt if I haven't by now - the newer, more expensive devices like the Pirana or ATS. A $10 Figure 8 is my preference. Obviously, I'm not against the commercialization of canyoneering, but lately it seems that gear manufacturers are jumping on the canyoneering bandwagon and there's a trend towards overdesigning gear just to be different and to sell. Do you really need a $40 descender when a $10 Figure 8 works as well? I've yet to see anything out there that is worth the added cost to a simple Figure 8. To me, Tom's post here says it all. The additional $30 that was spent to acquire the design "improvements" of the Pirana aren't even being used. His methods for adding friction work just the same as if he was on a $10 Figure 8. Not to mention the so called "floating disconnect" benefit of the Pirana won't work any better when used this way than if you were to use a straight Figure 8 (in this setup the disconnect is actually harder with a Pirana than with a regular 8). So why spend the extra $$?

(the excitement here in Sacramento is Bingo, Candy Bingo to be specific. Thus I am drawn to reply at LENGTH...)

I cannot use a 10$ figure 8, because at my weight, I just cannot get enough friction, single strand, 8.3mm rope. And then there is ye olde break-the-gate-off-the-carabiner-fall-to-your-death effect, that I am just not that interested in paying attention to avoid.

I switched to a Pirana full time when prepping for the Jihad - faster on and off the rope = moving faster in canyons. I stay with the Pirana because I want to have the rescue capabilities 24/7/365. Yes I can figure something out with other devices, but why bother. The Pirana does it all, quickly, obviously, simply. Whatever rope, whatever configuration. Costs more - BFD - I go through 2 or 3 a year and am glad to say I can afford that.

Also bear in mind that the longer rappels require less friction from your descender, not more. Of course, it is nice to be able to add friction lower down the longer raps, mainly because your arm gets tired and because of the stretch in the rope. Technically, the last 20' of a 200' rappel has no less friction than a 20' rappel. It's just that the stretch in the 180' of rope above you tries to whip the remaining rope below you through your descender.

Ropes have stretch? What kind of ropes are you using?? I do not use ropes that have stretch!! This can turn out really badly. Ropes without stretch are quite a bit easier and possibly safer to use!

That's where the additional friction on your descender is nice to have. Whether you use the horns of a Pirana or a leg loop biner is a personal choice. If the Pirana is truly advantageous for someone, great, but I think most folks buy expensive gear without first knowing how to use any gear. Additional money spent on superfluous gear is not a substitute for lack of experience. No offense, but that video showed a great example of how an expensive device wasn't used properly.

Maybe. But c'mon. It's not like we're talking real money here. Less than a tank of gas.

Yes yes yes. The canyoneering world would be a lot safer if people knew how to use the gear they have. Yes yes yes.

Regarding ropes and Class C, I use 8mm Imlay for personal use and 3/8" HTP for guiding. I use an ABC Figure 8 and rap single strand whenever possible. Keep in mind that if the rope is running down the watercourse in a decent flow of water then you're gonna have a lot of friction just from the falling water pulling on the rope (like having an overzealous bottom belayer). That 100' waterfall rap is gonna have more friction than a 100' dry rap, all other things being equal. As a result I find that I use lower friction settings in the wet canyons than the dry. Also, you tend to wanna go faster in the wet stuff, anyway, what with all that water pounding on you.

Perhaps you'd like to try the Canyonero...

As for floating disconnects, unless you're chaining two or more potholed sections together then there's no need for a floating disconnect. Simply set the rope length and rap off the end. Even if you are chaining potholes together, a floating disconnect with a regular 8 is no more difficult (and can actually be easier) than with a Pirana. Let's first assume there's no current in the pool between raps and you're not wearing any floatation device. With a Pirana you have to use one hand to open the gate while the other pulls the rope out (forget the one-handed exit that's been alluded to - that just ain't happening. You need both hands here). This isn't too bad, but you will be sinking and it's not always easy to grab that rope and get it around the nose of the carabiner. Keep in mind that you cannot rely so much on the rope above you to hold you out of the water since you must give yourself slack to get the rope in the biner around its nose. You will be sinking and that makes it more difficult. Now, with a regular Figure 8 you rap to the pool and hold on to the Figure 8 with one hand (which prevents you from sinking) while unclipping the carabiner from the Figure 8. Since the rope does not run through the carabiner with a Figure 8 you need not give yourself slack to unclip (hence, no sinking). Once the 8 is off the carabiner you flip the 8 over, clip the large ring of the 8 into the carabiner, then unhook the rope from the little ring. This way you won't lose the 8 should you let go of it before it gets clipped back into your carabiner. The fact that the 8 stays on the rope just above the pool gives you something to hold onto and steady yourself while you are unclipping, flipping and reclipping the carabiner. This ability, which you do not have with the Pirana, greatly facilitates the floating disconnect.

Hmmmm. Methinks he doth protest too much!

Yes, if we try really hard, we can take a clunky piece of gear designed in the 1950s, and pretend it works just as well as the cleverly re-designed alternative made specifically by rather smart people for canyoneering in the 2000s. Me, I would rather enjoy the advantages the Pirana offers, rather than work up a sweat beating that troglodyte drum...

Tom

[hank moon]

Let's first assume there's no current in the pool between raps and you're not wearing any floatation device.

As in, you're in a wet canyon, but not carrying a pack with any drybags, kegs, etc. in it? Scenario seem contrivo !

These Fig. 8 posts are great in that they highlight some of the major probs with the device:

1. In a high-flow class C canyon, clipping the rope through the carabiner is a MUST to avoid girth hitching the 8 and possibly drowning under a waterfall. And...doing this greatly reduces the friction.

2. A figure 8 can break open a locked carabiner and pop right out, leaving you with no attachment to the rope. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - Splat. It has happened numerous times (also with J-frame Brake bar racks and other large-attachment-eye devices.)

See here: http://goo.gl/Y3Mxp

[Deathcricket]

Hmmmm. Methinks he doth protest too much!

Yes, if we try really hard, we can take a clunky piece of gear designed in the 1950s, and pretend it works just as well as the cleverly re-designed alternative made specifically by rather smart people for canyoneering in the 2000s. Me, I would rather enjoy the advantages the Pirana offers, rather than work up a sweat beating that troglodyte drum...

Tom

Awesome post. I was reading his description on "how easy it was to water disconnect" and was baffled how he came to this conclusion after writing and 18 simple steps thesis. I was totally waiting for the "and then you hold the figure 8 in your teeth as you swim out" sentence though. I am dissapoint.

Additional money spent on superfluous gear is not a substitute for lack of experience. No offense, but that video showed a great example of how an expensive device wasn't used properly.

Your whole post was LOL, but I should at least comment on this I guess. You have never accidentally set your friction too high on a 10MM rope after using an 8.3mm all that day and on past trips? I'm not kidding that 8.3 is hella fast. And because I set my friction too high (erring on the side of caution) its the gear's fault and not mine? I wouldn't make the exact same mistake using a POS figure 8? Hilarious.

Come on, someone here besides me has set their friction too high and had a slow ride down, I know it! I'm just willing to post video.

[ratagonia]

Come on, someone here besides me has set their friction too high and had a slow ride down, I know it! I'm just willing to post video.

Nope.

When people set their friction too high, they struggle their way down the rope, reach the ground in one piece, and then the memory of that happening goes away. Set the friction too low... well, we got a lot of those Trip Reports, don't we???

T

[moabmatt]

Hank, Tom and Deathcricket,

Touche, indeed. You've all made some very good points and it's certainly making me think.

Yes, there is the possibility the Fig8 could lever against the gate (or the spine, too) upon loading the rope. That's just one of the many things I check for when starting a rappel (and when overseeing someone else starting a rappel using an 8). I do have a Pirana and have used it enough to know it's not perfect, either. Even when using a Pirana, or any other device, you must still check that the carabiner itself isn't being cross-loaded. While the Pirana itself won't lever against the carabiner, the carabiner can still get askew at the harness attachment point (regardless of whether it's a D-ring, a webbing attachment point or BOD-style). The higher profile of the carabiner's locking sleeve does cause it to habitually hang up on the harness attachment point, especially when doing sitting starts or anytime you put a bunch of slack in the system then reload the rope. Perhaps just as the Pirana pinches tight on its carabiner so it doesn't move around, the carabiner should pinch tight against the attachment point so it doesn't move around. Also, somewhat related, when introducing slack in the system the rope can come off the Pirana's hooks and provide a lower-friction surprise when reloading the rope. Sorry, cheap shot at the Pirana :) Bottom line is that regardless of the device we use we always need to be very aware of it and its carabiner's orientation.

Something else that I just noticed is that not only can the carabiner cross-load at the attachment point, but it can, if using a harness with a D-ring, lever against the D-ring just like a Fig8 can lever against its carabiner. Again, sitting starts or any situation that puts slack in the system have a habit of causing your carabiner to become askew and lever against something. This could also be a problem if using a rapide connection on a harness with a belay loop. And the problem appears no matter the choice of descender. I recall awhile back Petzl used a D-ring for its Canyon harness. They're now using a webbing attachment point so the carabiner, while still able to become cross-loaded, cannot lever against any metal. I've been using and swear by metal D-ring attachment points for 15 years - and have never had any problems with them, only benefits - but this is something that's got me thinking now. So when Tom mentions that he's not interested in paying attention to such things as levering, those of us using any kind of metal attachment do still need to pay attention. Even with Piranas. :)

Tom, regarding ropes that do not stretch. You're not serious, right? I use your ropes and HTPs, mostly. The HTPs are the lowest stretch ropes I know of, but there's still noticeable stretch on long raps. As for friction, when I use your 8mm with heavy loads hung from my harness I rig the 8 normally then reclip the rope into the carabiner for added friction. Works great and Hank will be pleased to know that setup helps eliminate the chance for a mid-rap girth hitch. Thanks for the lengthy rebuttal, I just found it ironic that you add friction, not with what is likely the Pirana's most lauded feature, but with a setup that can be used on any old Fig8. I do realize that your setup, as opposed to using the Fig8, cannot girth hitch, so a big BINGO there. Enjoy Sac. :)

Hank, thanks for the link. Though I've heard of the levering accidents and am familiar with the girth hitch potential, I've not heard of all the deaths. It's interesting that the report states that, despite being used for decades, no known accidents with Fig8s had occurred till '95. Also notable is that all (three) victims, in the five year period the report analyzed, were careless - or at least unobservant. Again, no matter what descender is being used it's imperative to watch how things are being loaded as you step/slide over the edge. Is there a more current report out there that talks about the girth hitch accidents (especially those mid-rap), or any other "levering" accidents since 2000? Or am I the only one still using Fig8s so no more studies have been done. :)

Deathcricket, sorry, I didn't mean to come off as Holier-than-thou, though I can see it looks that way. I've certainly battled my way down some long drops with tremendous friction, but with non-variable friction devices like the ATC. The Pirana is nice for it's variable friction ability. And sorry for the long-winded floating disconnect dissertation. Despite the 18-step process, I still find these disconnects as easy, if not easier, with a Fig8 than a Pirana. The main thing being that when using an 8, unlike a Pirana, you have something that's essentially fixed to the rap rope to hold onto to stabilize yourself (if need be) in the pool.

Everyone has preferences, of course, and I was just presenting mine - though I'm sorry if it appeared untactful. I would certainly encourage everyone to at least try a Fig8. When used properly they are, in my opinion, great devices. Buy one (no, I don't own stock in any gear company). If you don't like it then you can have it on hand for other uses. The most notable for me is as a contingency anchor/block. If for no other reason this is a great one to own a Fig8. It's also handy as a rigging plate if you're trying to clip multiple ropes/stuff into a small master point (ie, rappel rope, guide rope, belay rope, tethers, packs, etc)

And they're only $10! ;)

Sorry to hijack your thread, Brian. Have fun over there!

[ratagonia]

Also, somewhat related, when introducing slack in the system the rope can come off the Pirana's hooks and provide a lower-friction surprise when reloading the rope. Bottom line is that regardless of the device we use we always need to be very aware of it and its carabiner's orientation.

Yes, we had a near-accident in Heaps last year due to hook-hop. Thankfully the short fall ended in water. Emotional damage, but no physical damage.

Tom, regarding ropes that do not stretch. You're not serious, right? I use your ropes and HTPs, mostly. The HTPs are the lowest stretch ropes I know of, but there's still noticeable stretch on long raps.

I am serious, though I conveniently glossed over that when wet they stretch. When dry, not much at all. I seem to get 1 foot in 300, my bodyweight. Your description made it sound like there was bouncing up and down going on? - something I have seen in some ropes and which is why I heartily dislike bouncy ropes.

Hank, thanks for the link. Though I've heard of the levering accidents and am familiar with the girth hitch potential, I've not heard of all the deaths. It's interesting that the report states that, despite being used for decades, no known accidents with Fig8s had occurred till '95. Also notable is that all (three) victims, in the five year period the report analyzed, were careless - or at least unobservant. Again, no matter what descender is being used it's imperative to watch how things are being loaded as you step/slide over the edge. Is there a more current report out there that talks about the girth hitch accidents (especially those mid-rap), or any other "levering" accidents since 2000? Or am I the only one still using Fig8s so no more studies have been done. :)

Before '95 - no Internet, much gets lost as unreported.

In any case, the fall-to-your-death rate is very low. Which does not matter if the victim is YOU. Different biners are less prone to the effect - I found an Oval (Petzl OK Screwgate) only rarely entered the breaking configuration, while a sharp-corner HMS biner or D would hardly ever naturally assume a "safe" alignment.

Tom

[moabmatt]

I am serious, though I conveniently glossed over that when wet they stretch. When dry, not much at all. I seem to get 1 foot in 300, my bodyweight. Your description made it sound like there was bouncing up and down going on? - something I have seen in some ropes and which is why I heartily dislike bouncy ropes.

What ropes are you using?! I weigh 170# and if I tie an 8mm Imlay (or even a 3/8" HTP) to a 300' high bridge (ie, dry rappel) so the end is an inch off the ground I'll end up with quite a bit of rope on the ground when I arrive. It's the tensioned fibers above you that want to whip this slack through the rap device as you get close to the bottom and one of the reasons folks find the lower end of a long rap very "bouncy." At the bottom of that 300' rappel let go of the rope and notice the rope try to whip through your device. This doesn't happen on a 20' rappel. Is it just me that notices this?

[ratagonia]

What ropes are you using?! I weigh 170# and if I tie an 8mm Imlay (or even a 3/8" HTP) to a 300' high bridge (ie, dry rappel) so the end is an inch off the ground I'll end up with quite a bit of rope on the ground when I arrive. It's the tensioned fibers above you that want to whip this slack through the rap device as you get close to the bottom and one of the reasons folks find the lower end of a long rap very "bouncy." At the bottom of that 300' rappel let go of the rope and notice the rope try to whip through your device. This doesn't happen on a 20' rappel. Is it just me that notices this?

I mostly use Fire these days, which has the same core as the 8mm. Hmmm, maybe I will have to do a trip to Engelstead and actually measure this effect. Hmmmm. The 3/8" HTP should have the same stretch as my ropes - almost none.

T

[oldno7]

Even Static ropes are rated in a % of elongation, this varies greatly.

Generally based on 300lb, ft. load.

Take the Bluewater 9.2mm canyon ds. 5.6%elongation @ 300lb, ft.
Bluewater 8mm canyon pro ds-- 1.8% elongation @ 300lb, ft.

and so on. I, like Matt have noticed significant stretch in static ropes on longish rappels, being wet magnifies this situation.

All static lines are not created equal. I used to have the data on Tom's ropes, but can't find it now. I think they are very low stretch.

[ratagonia]

Even Static ropes are rated in a % of elongation, this varies greatly.

Generally based on 300lb, ft. load.

Take the Bluewater 9.2mm canyon ds. 5.6%elongation @ 300lb, ft.
Bluewater 8mm canyon pro ds-- 1.8% elongation @ 300lb, ft.

and so on. I, like Matt have noticed significant stretch in static ropes on longish rappels, being wet magnifies this situation.

All static lines are not created equal. I used to have the data on Tom's ropes, but can't find it now. I think they are very low stretch.

As part of QC, my ropes's stretch is measured at 390 lbsF. The set of data I have shows values between 1.00% and 1.9%.

Since this is a very low static stretch, it may be sensitive to the test method (a copy of which I do not have).

I guess I am not really saying they don't stretch at all, just that they don't stretch much.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Sorry to hijack your thread, Brian. Have fun over there!

No, thank you for keeping the thread alive!

Already got a Piranha, so, that's not an issue for me. I'll be going with somone who's pretty much a beginner and I want margin for piece of mind. Its a nice device for the stuff we'll be doing.

Watched a Piranha jack sideways on the steep, cut out airy start to a drop on Crete. Scary. I was worried if the person tried to correct it, that, it'd pop right off the locking biner. I clipped the anchor, leaned out, and, clipped them to me, then, pulled them in and re-orienteded it. Big air. 82 meter steep and free air. Just over the edge and hanging into space. Yikes. They'd used a much smaller biner and the Piranha just dangled off it, loose.


We'll hopefully be seeing some flowing water. Fun!

[ratagonia]

They'd used a much smaller biner and the Piranha just dangled off it, loose.

Following directions can often be a good idea.