Increasing friction on an ATC

[oldno7]

See!

Whoaaaa--That picture has to be shopped, look at all that hair...............

[Bo_Beck]

Whoaaaa--That picture has to be shopped, look at all that hair...............

Keep it in a special folder to preserve my san....I mean vanity.

[hank moon]

Good thing it was Bluewater Accessory cord and not some low friction, low stretch super stiff and durable rope made specifically for canyons!

Roger that. Y'know, in addition to global warming, scientists say that gravity has increased incrementally during the past 4 decades or so...could have been another factor in your earlier Heaps experience.

[coolinlv]

Really great advice, thanks folks. Wish I'd found this BEFORE my first canyoneering class though :). Did two 50 meter raps with 9 and 11 mm rope using an ATC xp and NEVER felt in real control. and this was using two carabiners and a leg loop. have since learned about the "z" rig above as well as wrapping the brake rope around my behind and using the other hand (i don't care which hand I brake with). next time I also think I'll try an autoblock off a leg loop with the rope THEN wrapped around my butt. using what I did, I wouldn't try doing a lock-off using any method as I was never confident enough. I also tore up fairly thick neoprene gloves AND my hands a bit. and I'm not that big, about 200 lbs with light pack....

[ratagonia]

Really great advice, thanks folks. Wish I'd found this BEFORE my first canyoneering class though :). Did two 50 meter raps with 9 and 11 mm rope using an ATC xp and NEVER felt in real control. and this was using two carabiners and a leg loop. have since learned about the "z" rig above as well as wrapping the brake rope around my behind and using the other hand (i don't care which hand I brake with). next time I also think I'll try an autoblock off a leg loop with the rope THEN wrapped around my butt. using what I did, I wouldn't try doing a lock-off using any method as I was never confident enough. I also tore up fairly thick neoprene gloves AND my hands a bit. and I'm not that big, about 200 lbs with light pack....

Welcome to the Bogley, Coolinlv.

I believe you found out that neoprene gloves are not rappelling gloves. Leather works at times, and the Atlas Thermofit work OK, but neoprene gloves are counter-productive. Sometimes in Heaps we wear neoprene gloves for warmth during the cold swims, and take them off for the rappels.

Sounds like you have four hands, if you are doing all these things on a rappel to get more friction and control. Actually, to me it sounds like something is not right, because using a 9mm and 11mm rope, with an ATC-XP, pretty much any way you stuff it in shoulda been sufficient. Or did you mean a single line 9mm rap and a single line 11mm rap? Even then...

The Z-rig kinda stuff (ie, cross-butting, squeezing really hard, not feeling like you are in control) should be used rarely, and mostly on long rappels. If you're using the Z-rig on a regular basis, that tends to imply you are not getting enough friction on your "regular basis" rappel method, and there are simpler ways to get more friction than Z-rig kinda stuff; and should probably be your primary method, saving the Z-rig kinda stuff for special situations like long rappels.

Tom

[coolinlv]

Welcome to the Bogley, Coolinlv.

I believe you found out that neoprene gloves are not rappelling gloves. Leather works at times, and the Atlas Thermofit work OK, but neoprene gloves are counter-productive. Sometimes in Heaps we wear neoprene gloves for warmth during the cold swims, and take them off for the rappels.

Sounds like you have four hands, if you are doing all these things on a rappel to get more friction and control. Actually, to me it sounds like something is not right, because using a 9mm and 11mm rope, with an ATC-XP, pretty much any way you stuff it in shoulda been sufficient. Or did you mean a single line 9mm rap and a single line 11mm rap? Even then...

The Z-rig kinda stuff (ie, cross-butting, squeezing really hard, not feeling like you are in control) should be used rarely, and mostly on long rappels. If you're using the Z-rig on a regular basis, that tends to imply you are not getting enough friction on your "regular basis" rappel method, and there are simpler ways to get more friction than Z-rig kinda stuff; and should probably be your primary method, saving the Z-rig kinda stuff for special situations like long rappels.

Tom

The neoprene gloves definitely didn't work well, though I wouldn't call them counter-productive as they actually saved my hands from getting torn up worse. It was single rope of both thicknesses. No one else in the class had any trouble getting enough friction, using a variety of devices, including another atc xp. I suspect SOMETHING was wrong, but no one was able to figure out what.....definitely put a huge damper on my first (and last?) experience as 90% of my energy and attention went to just slowing down. I think I'll practice in the garage with various suggestions here. Thanks!

[ratagonia]

The neoprene gloves definitely didn't work well, though I wouldn't call them counter-productive as they actually saved my hands from getting torn up worse. It was single rope of both thicknesses. No one else in the class had any trouble getting enough friction, using a variety of devices, including another atc xp. I suspect SOMETHING was wrong, but no one was able to figure out what.....definitely put a huge damper on my first (and last?) experience as 90% of my energy and attention went to just slowing down. I think I'll practice in the garage with various suggestions here. Thanks!

I say Neoprene gloves are counter-productive because they make it hard to grip the rope due to their bulk, and they tend to have a low-friction surface. A double-whammy. I was being polite. Neoprene gloves are DANGEROUS for rappelling.

You would have been much better off with no gloves on.

I am a guide with Zion Adventure Company and teach classes. We do not 'allow' people to use gloves in class. Gloves are a crutch. People must first learn to set up their rappel device with the amount of friction they want to get. By NOT wearing gloves, people learn this faster.

I don't know what you were doing, but I think we can conclude it is not working. I would suggest using a different instructor, since training you in how your tools are used is a large part of the job of the instructor.

At ZAC, we train people with a Pirana, which has many options, as a starting point. But, we can also teach the ATC-XP. Our link to courses is: http://www.zionadventures.com/zion-p...ering/courses/

Tom

[coolinlv]

I say Neoprene gloves are counter-productive because they make it hard to grip the rope due to their bulk, and they tend to have a low-friction surface. A double-whammy. I was being polite. Neoprene gloves are DANGEROUS for rappelling.

You would have been much better off with no gloves on.

I am a guide with Zion Adventure Company and teach classes. We do not 'allow' people to use gloves in class. Gloves are a crutch. People must first learn to set up their rappel device with the amount of friction they want to get. By NOT wearing gloves, people learn this faster.

I don't know what you were doing, but I think we can conclude it is not working. I would suggest using a different instructor, since training you in how your tools are used is a large part of the job of the instructor.

At ZAC, we train people with a Pirana, which has many options, as a starting point. But, we can also teach the ATC-XP. Our link to courses is: http://www.zionadventures.com/zion-p...ering/courses/

Tom

No gloves in this case would have simply meant NO hands; as it was, I had blisters and hot spots on the palms of both hands. and they were definitely grippier than bare skin, which is why I use them for other things. I understand the sentiment, though it's misguided (I've taught longer than you in a wildly different venue. My favorite aphorism: EVERYTHING works, NOTHING works for EVERYBODY.). No gloves would have taught a lesson, to no good or necessary, but a very predictable, end.

I'm not much into religious wars (hell, I'm writing this on a Mac!), but experience has taught than when someone says NEVER, they're almost certainly wrong.

I was probably using about 30 lbs to control my descent, using two carabiners on the ATC and one on a leg loop. I suspect that is at least a factor of 3 too much? I tried other devices during ground school and didn't much care for them (too many bells and whistles for newbies with already too many things to remember), though the Stirling ATS might be worth a long look.

Actually thought my instructor was quite good. He probably should have had us do a 10 foot rap, to tweek things before going to a much longer one though. Wasn't possible at our venue, unfortunately. Life is a learning experience, if one does it right.

Thru experimentation, I think I've discovered that a half twist in the belay loop had the rope missing the main
friction causing surfaces in the ATC. I sorta noticed that on the ground, hence the extra precautions. See the last sentence in the previous paragraph!

[Brian in SLC]

Did two 50 meter raps with 9 and 11 mm rope using an ATC xp and NEVER felt in real control..

Single rope or double?

I use an ATC a ton especially for climbing. I'm probably a bit heavier than you. I use an 8.9 to 9.4mm climbing rope and really nothing bigger (rare, but, I do have a 10.5mm 70m rope I use for hard use).

If I'm rappelling double strand, I never, never, add a biner, z rig or wear gloves. I get plenty of friction out of my ATC XP all by itself. This as recently as yesterday...but...usually several times a week.

You've got to be missing something. Your brake hand position, body position, something must be off.

[Deathcricket]

Really great advice, thanks folks. Wish I'd found this BEFORE my first canyoneering class though :). Did two 50 meter raps with 9 and 11 mm rope using an ATC xp and NEVER felt in real control. and this was using two carabiners and a leg loop. have since learned about the "z" rig above as well as wrapping the brake rope around my behind and using the other hand (i don't care which hand I brake with). next time I also think I'll try an autoblock off a leg loop with the rope THEN wrapped around my butt. using what I did, I wouldn't try doing a lock-off using any method as I was never confident enough. I also tore up fairly thick neoprene gloves AND my hands a bit. and I'm not that big, about 200 lbs with light pack....

I've actually never been comfortable rapping on an ATC either. I've tried it a couple times since this was posted with the techniques mentioned and it's not comforting. I can do it, but never feel in complete control. They do work "ok" for double strand though. I would advise you to just get a piranna, it has some really nice friction settings and works awesome. Sometimes a better "tool" is all you need.

[Brian in SLC]

Sometimes a better "tool" is all you need.

How's that go? Its a poor carpenter that blames his tools...

Or...its not the size of the wand, but, the magic behind it?

Ha ha...

[ratagonia]

I've actually never been comfortable rapping on an ATC either. I've tried it a couple times since this was posted with the techniques mentioned and it's not comforting. I can do it, but never feel in complete control. They do work "ok" for double strand though. I would advise you to just get a piranna, it has some really nice friction settings and works awesome. Sometimes a better "tool" is all you need.

ATC is a great tool, but as Las Vegas Coolio has pointed out, it requires some knowledge to get the correct friction on it.

Tom

[Deathcricket]

ATC is a great tool, but as Las Vegas Coolio has pointed out, it requires some extra knowledge, equipment, limiting mobility in a leg, and extended setup to get the correct friction set on it.

Tom

Fixed

How's that go? Its a poor carpenter that blames his tools...

Or...its not the size of the wand, but, the magic behind it?

Ha ha...

And that's why I still rap off the pieces of "bent rebar" I still see in canyons. if it was good enough for the original explorers, it's good enough for me. *snicker*

[hank moon]

You've got to be missing something. Your brake hand position, body position, something must be off.

X2

And Neo gloves can be deceptive: though they may seem to grip the rope better from a coefficient of friction POV, if they are thick and/or loose-fitting, their bulk and sponginess prevents the hand from applying a good mechanical grip to the rope (unless you're using super-thick rope, of course). Even if they are a good fit, the hand fatigues faster from resisting the gloves' elasticity. Finally, they can also quickly wear away under the sliding rope, so the good static grip (high friction coefficient) you imagine will help can cause problems when the rope starts sliding through the gloves.

Coolinlv, can you tell us more about the setup you were using? Brand, model, and condition of rope (was it brand new?). How the two carabiners were being used. Whether the brake line(s) were correctly running through the high friction (grooved) side of the ATC-XP. Wear state of the ATC and its carabiners, etc.

Techniques such as wrapping rope around the butt (or other body parts) are for emergency use and inherently risky/unstable, and/or painful. A proper descending setup should use only a descender (or sometimes two) and some carabiners to generate friction.

X2 on what Tom said about your instructor. A better instructor would have made certain the students understood the basics of friction before cutting them loose on a long rappel - especially with Neo gloves (scary). Fortunately, you seem to be on a good path to learning from the experience.

[ratagonia]

Fixed



And that's why I still rap off the pieces of "bent rebar" I still see in canyons. if it was good enough for the original explorers, it's good enough for me. *snicker*

Please do not alter-quote my posts out here in the 'real-world', Death Cricket. I realize down in the dungeon, it is 'funny'. Up here, it is defamatory.

Tom

[DiscGo]

[kiwi_outdoors]

well, lets see if I can get meself in hot water....

First- if you want friction that is kind to your rope (that which you dangle from) use a cavers rack - easy to make coarse adjustments by adding or relleasing a bar , fine tune friction by squeezing bars together or spreading them apart, easy peasy to tie off and take a nap (or a photo)

Second - although I have used them for almost all my raps the ATC intrinsically seems like a lousy descent device as it has next to zero inherent friction. It is not a logical design for anything except descending fast.

Ok. flame on :-)

[hank moon]

This thread belongs in XX Century.

[harness man]

Canyoneering with ATCs, Piranas, and Racks?