Completion of Biner Block Rigging

[ratagonia]

...inspired by another thread...

Don't youse guyz tie off (safety off) the pull side of a biner block, for all but the last person? To me, seems like the rigging is not complete until this is done.

[Deathcricket]

I use a quick draw instead of a locking beener on the top, but yeah, same exact setup.

[Iceaxe]

Nope..... I never tie off the pull cord side, but I also don't tie on the pull cord until the last man down so it would be difficult to rappel on the wrong side of my block considering the pull side consists of nothing but an 18" tail.

If I was rappeling as per the picture above I'd skip the biner block and just rap double strand. Why would you want to complicate the system with a block if you have enough rope to rap double strand?

Outside of class C the only reason I can see for using a biner block is you are using a light weight pull cord. other than that you are just complicating the system trying to show off your knot tying skills to the noob's.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Nope..... I never tie off the pull cord side, but I also don't tie on the pull cord until the last man down so it would be difficult to rappel on the wrong side of my anchor considering the pull side consists of nothing but a 12" tail.

If I was rappeling as per your picture I'd skip the biner block and just rap double strand. Why would you want to complicate the system with a block if you have enough rope to rap double strand?

one obvious situation would be a floating disconnect, where you can set the rope length...

[Deathcricket]

Nope..... I never tie off the pull cord side, but I also don't tie on the pull cord until the last man down so it would be difficult to rappel on the wrong side of my block considering the pull side consists of nothing but an 18" tail.

If I was rappeling as per the picture above I'd skip the biner block and just rap double strand. Why would you want to complicate the system with a block if you have enough rope to rap double strand?

Outside of class C the only reason I can see for using a biner block is you are using a light weight pull cord. other than that you are just complicating the system trying to show off your knot tying skills to the noob's.

I have this re-occurring nightmare that I didn't set my friction right and being the first down, I plummet to my death. So I use a Petzyl STOP and it only does single strand.

[Iceaxe]

one obvious situation would be a floating disconnect, where you can set the rope length...

Agreed....

I'm not saying there is not a place for a biner block, I just don't think it should be the standard for every drop.

I also don't believe the pull side should be dropped until the last person down. I see a lot of inexperienced groups using a biner block and dropping the pull side before the last person down.

[ratagonia]

I also don't believe the pull side should be dropped until the last person down. I see a lot of inexperienced groups using a biner block and dropping the pull side before the last person down.

Good to see we agree on a few things, Ice...

T

[Iceaxe]

Good to see we agree on a few things, Ice...

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the pull side was dropped early in both the Imlay accident and the Pine Creek accident.

[CarpeyBiggs]

I also don't believe the pull side should be dropped until the last person down. I see a lot of inexperienced groups using a biner block and dropping the pull side before the last person down.

also agreed.

but i'll also just say that i greatly prefer rapping on single strand now than i do double, so even when we have enough rope, i usually prefer single strand... just a preference thing. there really is no reason to throw the pull side down until the last person though.

[Brian in SLC]

one obvious situation would be a floating disconnect, where you can set the rope length...

I think that works pretty well for large groups, but, if there's just two or three folks, then, not sure its a big time/hassle saver. Neat to rap off a short end into deep water, for sure, though. More of a stunt than anything.

I rap my pull cord all the time. Helps keep it from getting tangled sometimes.

Devices like the Piranha and figure eight, Gri Gri, Stop, etc, all benefit a bit from SRT type rappelling.

As a climber, I almost never see anyone rigging to rappel single strand. Just not commonly done at all. Why its different for canyoneering is a bit of a mystery to me, except, I think its promoted mostly so canyoneers can be different than climbers. In most canyons here, with no flow, into no water or still, shallow water, without rigging for contingency, I see no real advantage to it. Less friction. More wear on the rope. Higher risk for a sheath tear.

I guess one advantage is that its way easier to ascend a fixed rappel rope with a mechanical ascender (or, maybe even a Prusik). Also gives the opportunity to do a pick off on the other strand too, but, in that case, a contingency anchor would be better.

Anyhoo...

[CarpeyBiggs]

I think that works pretty well for large groups, but, if there's just two or three folks, then, not sure its a big time/hassle saver. Neat to rap off a short end into deep water, for sure, though. More of a stunt than anything.

yeah, kinda. but in cold deep pools, like the ones we had in the grand canyon in february, i can assure you it's greatly preferred to rap just to the water level and not have to disconnect, so you can keep your hands dry and not frozen. it's more than a stunt, it's convenience and comfort.

Devices like the Piranha and figure eight, Gri Gri, Stop, etc, all benefit a bit from SRT type rappelling.

agreed.

As a climber, I almost never see anyone rigging to rappel single strand. Just not commonly done at all. Why its different for canyoneering is a bit of a mystery to me, except, I think its promoted mostly so canyoneers can be different than climbers. In most canyons here, with no flow, into no water or still, shallow water, without rigging for contingency, I see no real advantage to it. Less friction. More wear on the rope. Higher risk for a sheath tear.

i think because you are a badass climber, your frame of reference is different. for me, i've done very little technical climbing, and i never have once thought "how can i be different?" i don't care what climbers do, necessarily, nor do i care what climbers think of "canyoneers." it's simply a matter of comfort and convenience and most of all, safety. wear on the rope, sheath tears, less friction are moot points in my opinion. if you rappel using proper techniques, all those things are easily avoidable. however, there are many times when we ascend single strands, or where there is simply more contingencies available. the important thing is people understand how to rap SAFELY. that can be accomplished in a variety of ways.

I guess one advantage is that its way easier to ascend a fixed rappel rope with a mechanical ascender (or, maybe even a Prusik). Also gives the opportunity to do a pick off on the other strand too, but, in that case, a contingency anchor would be better.

yep.

[CarpeyBiggs]

also, it's a consistency thing for me too. with a lot of the ghosting techniques, you rappel single strand because it uses way less rope (like the sandtrap.) also, when rapping off meat anchors we use single strand (less rope again.) so i simply prefer to always rap single strand, since it is almost always the easiest, fastest, and safest. ymmv.

of course, in zion, some of this isn't applicable. the place is bolted up and "different" from most other areas.

[rcwild]

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the pull side was dropped early in both the Imlay accident and the Pine Creek accident.

I'll take that bet regarding most recent Imlay incident. Rope bag was still on top.

[Brian in SLC]

I'll take that bet regarding most recent Imlay incident. Rope bag was still on top.

Wonder if that contributed to her amazing lack of bad injuries? Yikes. Had the rope been deployed, would have maybe been a much quicker fall? Double yikes.

I need to brush up on my single rope stuff for a possible trip to Spain...hmmm....maybe I'll start a new thread...

[Iceaxe]

I'll take that bet regarding most recent Imlay incident. Rope bag was still on top.

Guess I owe you a chocolate donut with sprinkles...

Just curious.... How did they manage to get clipped to the wrong side? The last rap in Imlay is an awkward start and the pull line would/should have been running back around the corner about chest high.

[skiclimb3287]

Just curious.... How did they manage to get clipped to the wrong side? The last rap in Imlay is an awkward start and the pull line would/should have been running back around the corner about chest high.

I'll venture a guess at how that happened...

Any chance the rope bag was clipped into the anchor? I have seen that done before and it worries me that it complicates the anchor way more than it needs to. With this setup (and no backup or safety), I can foresee a loop of rope hanging out of the bag to the ground and back up to the biner block. I think it would be then pretty easy to clip into the wrong rope after a long day. YMMV



Not sure how to add a quote using edit function. Appears I was able to quote it, but it didn't attribute it... Sorry Ice!

[moab mark]

One of the guys in our group has been practicing his skills and has been LAMAR lately with me going down earlier. Prior to him dropping the pull side I have been tying a 8 on a bite in the rappel strand and clipping into my harness. This way if he screws up I am there as the anchor at the bottom. Gives me a few more warm fuzzies.

Mark

[jman]

I also don't believe the pull side should be dropped until the last person down. I see a lot of inexperienced groups using a biner block and dropping the pull side before the last person down.

X4. However, instead of throwing the pull-cord down, we just leave it in the bag on smaller raps (less than 120) and clip it onto the last person's harness in back. Nick North taught us that. It helps the two ropes from becoming entangled.

[Felicia]

...inspired by another thread...

Don't youse guyz tie off (safety off) the pull side of a biner block, for all but the last person? To me, seems like the rigging is not complete until this is done.

We do.

[trackrunner]

...inspired by another thread...

Don't youse guyz tie off (safety off) the pull side of a biner block, for all but the last person? To me, seems like the rigging is not complete until this is done.

I generally never toss the pull strand and leave it at the top to make it clear which is the correct strand. sometimes I also tie off the pull strand if there is a situation it could be confusing or to isolate two strands. but there are better ways to isolate two strands, joker & stone knot are the most common I use.

I've gone with people that use a clip-draw with lockers tie off. one biner is the binner-block and the other is the safety clip to the anchor. Last person removes and clips to the line for retrieval. Works OK with a clean pull, if a questionable pull problem the draw & safety binner is removed.

In most canyons here, with no flow, into no water or still, shallow water, without rigging for contingency, I see no real advantage to it. Less friction. More wear on the rope. Higher risk for a sheath tear.

Other than Dan's points listed below & other similar situations I'd agree. Agree by usually using a contingency or if using DRT we have another rope up top as a rescue rope just in case someone messes up on the DRT.

also, it's a consistency thing for me too. with a lot of the ghosting techniques, you rappel single strand because it uses way less rope (like the sandtrap.) also, when rapping off meat anchors we use single strand (less rope again.) so i simply prefer to always rap single strand, since it is almost always the easiest, fastest, and safest. ymmv.

I also don't believe the pull side should be dropped until the last person down. I see a lot of inexperienced groups using a biner block and dropping the pull side before the last person down.

Agree. Other than isolating two independent strands why are some of you dropping the pull cord?