Came across an injured Canyoneer in Imlay (what would you do)

[oval]

Gives all rappelling, no matter the method, a bad name.

I try to impart a safety check protocol. Clip into the anchor. Rig your device. Go fully on rappel, check it to see if functions properly. Then, unclip and descend.

Testing while backed up proves it's worth in gold, time and time again. Everyone would do well to heed these words.

...

Biner block just isn't that useful a tool, except, to keep from having to pass a knot if your rope lengths don't add up for a longer rappel. I still wonder why folks bother with it when they have enough rope to just rappel double. Seems like a silly thing to rig when your ropes are long enough to begin with. Of course, making sure you have both ropes engaged should be standard for a double rope rappel too...(with bad consequences if that is f'd up too).

Going to agree with this sentiment as well. Sometimes people just get into the mode of doing the same thing (biner block) every single time, when in many cases, doing a double rope rappel would eliminate the chance of human error (rapping the wrong side) and also increase the frictional control of the rappel (how many "got going to fast" errors have we heard of?).

Don't be afraid to double strand rap... you dont JUST have to single rope technique in every scenario.

[canyonguru]

I double everything pretty much. It is fast and there is verry little room for error. I also always carry enough rope to double the longest rap.

[ilipichicuma]

I double everything pretty much. It is fast and there is verry little room for error. I also always carry enough rope to double the longest rap.

That could turn into a LOT of rope sometimes...

[bshwakr]

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[ilipichicuma]

Isn't it the 'lot of rope' mindset that has encouraged the use of pull cords and biener blocks? Canyoneering is a team sport, weight can be distributed, shorter ropes can be used in a variety of situations. Perhaps those who are concerned about weight and difficulty should stick to the Keyholes and Pine Creeks.

I understand that, and I prefer rappelling double strand because of the added safety (and especially the added control). However, I feel like it could be taken to excess, and there are plenty of situations where rappelling double strand is just not as viable an option, for example on really long drops. I hope I'm not putting my foot in my mouth here, but that's my opinion. I think if everyone pays attention and it's rigged correctly the biner block is a totally acceptable method. But, we digress from the original topic of this thread.

[ratagonia]

I double everything pretty much. It is fast and there is verry little room for error. I also always carry enough rope to double the longest rap.

Don't mean to pick on you, Guru, so please don't take it that way. But...

I am concerned that there is a belief that using "Method A" rather than "Method B" produces "verry little room for error". Perhaps CanyonGuru was lobbing in a soft one, but I am sure he has typed the word 'very' many, many times in his life, and yet... I think this is a VERY DANGEROUS way to think about technical skills.

I hold that the particular method does not matter so much as being proficient in what you are doing, and paying attention at all times. Using double-rope technique, there are MANY opportunities for error (that's a "don't kid yourself" statement). There are many ways to improve the robustness of any system (using robustness to mean resistance to error, and minimizing consequences when an error is made) - such as tying the pull strand off to the anchor when using single rope technique, or adding a Stone Knot when using double rope technique.

Really, really, REALLY - what counts is being proficient at what you are doing, and paying attention.

So get proficient.

Proficiency comes from learning, being trained, practicing and teaching. Teaching improves your proficiency better than anything else. If you are the most proficient person in a canyon group, you should not be setting any anchors. If you are the least proficient, even your first canyon, you should be setting the MOST anchors. Explaining how to do things, and why you do things, leads to greater understanding of how and why. = proficiency. I think we would all be safer out there if we did this on a regular basis (when appropriate).

By "being trained", I mean deliberate, thorough training - not just picking something up by seeing your buddy do it once or twice (as in that accident in Pine Creek). You can train each other by examining what you do as a group, discussing pros and cons, what people like about it and don't like, when you think you should use it or not; ways to make it better (more robust); things to watch out for. Etc. I think adding some deliberateness to our passage through the canyons is the best way to improve the safety of the community. Not lobbying people to use one style rather than another.

Tom

[Scott Card]

Isn't it the 'lot of rope' mindset that has encouraged the use of pull cords and biener blocks? Canyoneering is a team sport, weight can be distributed, shorter ropes can be used in a variety of situations. Perhaps those who are concerned about weight and difficulty should stick to the Keyholes and Pine Creeks.

k

Yes and no to your question. I like the options of biner blocks with the pull side rope at the anchor "in the event of" what ever. I like them to set the length of rappel for effeciency with large groups. Also water disconnects. Lots of reason for biner blocks with the right group and individuals. Lots of reasons to not use them in many situations or groups if you have sufficient rope at the top of the rap to effect rescue should the event arise.

Now that being said (and having said this before) the Mapleton boys usually go heavy on the ropes. Our Heaps trip a couple of years ago comes to mind when he had our limit of 6 people available to carry ropes. We carried two 300 foot-ers, a 200'er, two 120'ers and and a couple of 50's if memory serves me correctly. That is about 1140 feet of rope we carried. It made me feel all warm and fuzzy with all that rope in our group. Seriously, I see no need to skimp on rope. I tend to think in worse case scenario anyway.

Also, I am not a pull cord kinda guy. Seems a waste to me. I'd rather lug a couple more pounds and have useful rope.

[bshwakr]

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[Iceaxe]

There have been many groups over the years that have mistaken information for experience.

And I'd add to that.... there are many canyoneers who mistake being led through a canyon with "doing" a canyon..... and while both are fun and legitimate descents, there is a difference....

Sometimes I think so-n-so hears his buddy did <insert name here> with Canyonman and figures if his no talent buddy can do the canyon he can too....

[Scott Card]

And I'd add to that.... there are many canyoneers who mistake being led through a canyon with "doing" a canyon..... and while both are fun and legitimate descents, there is a difference....

And I would add A BIG FAT DIFFERENCE. Doing a canyon and leading a canyon are two entirely different things.

[ratagonia]

There have been many groups over the years that have mistaken information for experience.

And ambition for competence.

T

[Scott Card]

and youth and strength for wisdom and skill....



I wish I had ALL that stuff.

[oval]

Really, really, REALLY - what counts is being proficient at what you are doing, and paying attention.

So get proficient.



Tom

This is true!
*********

Also, though, I'd say that all proficiency being equal,SRT has more chances of humman error than DRT. There are more steps required to set up a SRT to ensure safety.

If you run SRT like most people that I've encountered, then you don't have it tied off, you simply have a biner block on one side, and people make sure to clip into the proper side. No problem if you always clip into the proper side. Big problem if you dont.

With DRT, you always clip into both strands, which does eliminate the "wrong side" problem, and also eliminates the extra steps required with SRT that can be taken to eliminate the "wrong" side problem.
**********
I think Tom hit's the nail on the head though, you want to be proficient with the techniques you use; really proficient, not just in theory. Just because I argue that DRT has less places to fail due to Human Error, it doesn't mean that you should never use SRT.

[ratagonia]

Also, though, I'd say that all proficiency being equal,SRT has more chances of humman error than DRT.

I believe Clarke's third law applies here:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Well, that may be a little oblique.

The method YOU use seems to be simple. That is one reason you use it. Also, by using it, it becomes conceptually simpler.

The method I use is very simple. For me. Simple to practice, simple to understand, simple to teach, simple to learn. For me.

I understand Brian BDC is switching over to quadruple rope technique. After he has had a few years of practice with it, it will seem extremely simple. To him.

When I teach one-day courses, I start with double rope technique. If the students have never rappelled before, we usually do not concentrate on ropework much, and they end the day with a strong understanding of double rope technique. I usually show them single rope technique, so if offered a single rope rappel in a canyon, they can understand that it is a valid technique, and have an idea of what adjustments to make. But, your basic beginner one-day-basic student, time is better spent on other issues than setting up biner blocks etc. etc... and... much less benefit to the beginner canyoneer to learn single rope technique.

Jes sayin'...

Just sayin', Oval, that while the technique you use is simple, I like using my technique because it uses MAGIC!

Tom

[rick t]

seems like we have wandered quite a bit from the original accident topic here. I think the question should be not what kind of a system did this victim set up to do this rap with, but rather where were the other 3 people on this trip, and how is it that no one else took the time to look at or check the rap set up before the first person clipped in and took off. Unless she was the leader on this trip, and that seems unlikely given what transpired, it was incumbent for at least one other person to see what was set up, how, and to double check it before anyone clipped in. i understand that the group was somewhat stressed by what happened earlier in the canyon, but to me it seems like that should have been all the more reason for care, vigilence, and double checking each other and each set up. The group/team concept was mentioned earlier, and repeated when it came to carrying rope- but hauling a few lbs of nylon or poly thru the canyons pales in importance with people putting their life on the line every time they clip into a rope, this is where things have to be checked and double checked before the commitment is made to step over that edge.

rick t

[dougr]

A fall from that distance means likely internal bleeding and/or a spinal injury. Bleeding requires a faster evac, spinal requires no movement. With both equally likely, either choice is equally correct in my opinion. However, given that death is worse than the potential spinal injury, I'd give a slight nod to getting the victim out faster.

[ratagonia]

seems like we have wandered quite a bit from the original accident topic here. I think the question should be not what kind of a system did this victim set up to do this rap with, but rather where were the other 3 people on this trip, and how is it that no one else took the time to look at or check the rap set up before the first person clipped in and took off. Unless she was the leader on this trip, and that seems unlikely given what transpired, it was incumbent for at least one other person to see what was set up, how, and to double check it before anyone clipped in. i understand that the group was somewhat stressed by what happened earlier in the canyon, but to me it seems like that should have been all the more reason for care, vigilence, and double checking each other and each set up. The group/team concept was mentioned earlier, and repeated when it came to carrying rope- but hauling a few lbs of nylon or poly thru the canyons pales in importance with people putting their life on the line every time they clip into a rope, this is where things have to be checked and double checked before the commitment is made to step over that edge.

rick t

The physical setup of this particular rappel makes it difficult to check other people.

Tom

[canyonguru]

Didn't mean to add the rr in very. Every rappel is different and requires a different approach. The rappel might call for a double rap, or a biner block or whatever the case maybe. I stated that i like to use a double rap most of the time because that is what I'M most comfortable with. To have a large bag of tricks is great if you are proficient at each trick. I have a mid size bag of tricks but am only proficient at a few of them so i choose to use what i am the most proficient at.

What would have happened if the Guide or Leader of the group was the one who fell off of Imlay canyon leaving the two noobs up at the top to figure it out for themselves. Tom makes a great point about teaching each group member at least the basics of setting up each rap. I check myself and my group and they check me on every drop. Just like the old saying goes practice makes perfect.

There are two many ways to set up a rappel and two many different ideas and techniques out there for there to be a one right way every time. So yes saying that a biner block in this situation was wrong is not the right answer nor does saying that a double strand rap would have allowed this accident not to happen. I think i comes down to what YOU are most comfortable with and what YOU have the most training or experience with. Not what anyone else says or does.

Some like to join ropes with an EDK, some like to use a figure eight follow through. If the situation calls for an EDK then go for it. If the situation calls for a biner block than use a biner block. It is very hard for us to speculate on what happened when we were not there.

[ratagonia]

What would have happened if the Guide or Leader of the group was the one who fell off of Imlay canyon leaving the two noobs up at the top to figure it out for themselves. Tom makes a great point about teaching each group member at least the basics of setting up each rap. I check myself and my group and they check me on every drop. Just like the old saying goes practice makes perfect.

I would hope that everyone on a trip through Imlay would be capable of setting themselves up on rappel.

Not the best first canyon.

Tom

[oval]

Hehe, I see what you are saying Tom, and certainly the more practice you have with any given technique, the better you get at it.

At the same time, setting up a biner block simply has more steps, and more places to screw up. From a pure probability standpoint.

You're right, any technique that you hammer into your head should be pretty safe, and certainly it should be safer than any technique that you DONT use very much of the time. I dont think that means, however, that some techniques don't have more places to fail than others.

Just my opinions.