Rope grooves & rappeling

[peakbaggers]

We visited U-Turn & Tierdrop last weekend in Arches and on the last rap of Tierdrop, there were considerable rope grooves, more than what we've seen in Boltergiest. Some of the grooves cause me concern that even a small kink in your rope as you pull could get it stuck in some of these deeper grooves. When I see grooves that are virtually vertical, it leads me to believe that part of the problem is people pulling their ropes from directly below their anchor rather than backing away a good distance to reduce rope drag over the rock, etc. But that's only part of the problem. So, not wanting to contribute more to the problem; do more to protect our ropes, and not being too sure how to search for this topic on this site, can you direct me to any discussions about various methods people use to reduce the grooves besides the most obvious of extending your anchor. In a number of cases, extending your anchor is not possible if you want to be able to get into your rappel safely. Would like some ideas as to what others are doing/recommend.

[Iceaxe]

Relocating the anchor often works, which is probably the best option for Tierdrop. Back in the good-ol-days Pine Creek had some really wicked rope grooves at the last rappel and ropes were always getting stuck. I believe it was Tom that took the time to properly relocate the anchor to its current, and much better location.

So we have... extending the anchor, relocating the anchor, extending rope pull.... any other thoughts on solving the rope groove problem?

[peakbaggers]

I read a post here recently where someone mentioned using some kind of padding device they had rigged themselves, it sounded like to place under the rope? We've used something like that some when we train in Colo. National Monument at a favorite location, but doesn't work for the last guy down.

[Iceaxe]

I don't see a padding device becoming standard equipment in most canyoneers arsenal. Tierdrop is now a trade route descended by your typical weekend canyoneers. Those type of canyoneers are not going to buy a bunch of specialized equipment to stop rope grooves. Same goes for most the trade routes where rope grooves are a problem.

[moab mark]

It would be tough at that location to move the anchor, since it is a BFR. That location needs the webbing to extend over the drop so the pull is easy. This is the same problem with the vast majority of all the anchors all over the C.P., the webbing is to short. For everyone but the last dude the end of the webbing needs to be pulled up and clipped into the loop going around the BFR. (Courtesy Rappel) With the last guy reextending it and making his butt pucker as he handlines on the webbing over the edge to get onto rappel.This sport needs a safe reliable releasable device, so rope's can just be released. Matt at Desert Highlights needs to patent his and then run from the liablility and 99% of these problems would go away.

Mark

[oval]

If you carry a hammer, you'll probably be doing the community a service to knock deeply grooved pieces off in areas where there are multiple deep channels right next to each other. Obviously the long term solution is to extend the rap point to the edge or relocate the anchors, as has been recommended.

[Scott Card]

"if you carry a hammer....."

[oval]

"if you carry a hammer....."

:D I know Shane doesn't carry one b/c it's heavy and mostly unnecessary. I'm sure Tom would crucify me for having one since he sells his G-picks for $1000. I personally carry one along with some angled pins "just in case". At 16 oz, it does add weight, but it can get an anchor in sandstone if needed- I side on prepared I guess.

[Scott Card]

I think Tom's hammers on actually on sale for 20% off.

[Skylinerider]

Resource damage....sound like we need to close off those canyons.

[moab mark]

I copied this over from a thread from years ago.

http://www.deserthighlights.com/the-slick/the-slick.htm

[Iceaxe]

I copied this over from a thread from years ago.

http://www.deserthighlights.com/the-slick/the-slick.htm

This will never fly for many of the weekend canyoneers, they are not going to spend $100 to eliminate rope grooves. As a whole the canyoneering and climbing communities are populated be some of the cheapest... err.... thrifty.... people on the planet. At least compared to any other sport I've ever been involved with. Getting canyoneers as a group to blow the dust off their wallets is never going to happen.

[Brian in SLC]

Makes me wonder if some type of pad, connected at the bottom by a pull cord, might work? Install pad, rappel, then, pull rappel rope down over pad, then pull pad down? Might also double at saving the rope a bit too, and, keeping that fine sand out of the rope weave (and grooving out the belay device). Would be fairly easy to contruct. I'm not sure all configurations would have the pad stay in place, though, but, on long radius edges, and, sharp 90 degree type edges, maybe?

The rock in/near Arches can be phenominally soft. I recall doing a couple pitches on Sheep Rock (an aid climb) and just pulling up the rope cut deep grooves in the rock. Kinda cured me of doing much climbing there.

[Brian in SLC]

Another thought...you could have a pad that was, say, like a t-shirt. You could tie it off to the pull cord side and run the pull cord either through the middle of it, or, over the top. Lay the rappel rope over the top too. Both pulls would not see the rock (either through the shirt or on top of it).

Anyhoo...worth thinking about.

A well positioned fixed anchor solves some of the problem, that, or miles of webbing. Both kinda obtrusive.

[peakbaggers]

Thanks for all the responses ya'll! A number of things for this newbie to learn & consider. As for pad type material to be used under either sling/rope/etc, I was thinking about a thick piece of leather. Seems like only a few days ago, there was a post on here where someone mentioned something they had rigged up to go under rope. Have not been able to find that post. Was hoping to review what they said. The "Slick" looks interesting, especially in that it seems to work for extra long pulls, but I would not use it without having the opportunity to observe it's use. My philosophy is, the more complicated a rigging/knot is, the more likely that something can be done wrong. I like the KISS principle on stuff like this. Won't use it until I feel completely comfortable with it, and especially won't test it on my friends that I feel responsible for. Shane - you might be right about the "cheapness" of some, but for us, I'd have to say it takes some time to accumulate all the right equipment. We don't/didn't have enough money to go out and buy it all at once before getting started and we're still working on upgrading what we have.

[Iceaxe]

Shane - you might be right about the "cheapness" of some, but for us, I'd have to say it takes some time to accumulate all the right equipment. We don't/didn't have enough money to go out and buy it all at once before getting started and we're still working on upgrading what we have.

I agree... and I'm the same way. If I have $100 there are a lot of others things I'd spend the coin on instead of a rock protector.

With regards to Teirdrop. I believe the best answer for the drop is to relocate the anchor. Even if that means using a couple of bolts.

[ilipichicuma]

They mention putting leather or a hose under the rope in this thread.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...t)-Perspective

That actually sounds like a really good idea. Would just a piece of hose do a great job of protecting the rock and your rope? Then it would come down with the pull pretty easy, or it would at least be pretty easy to rig up a way to make sure it came down. But, I've never tried it so I can't be sure.

[Felicia]

I saw this at REI a couple weeks back. I think the price was around ten dollars.

[ghawk]

They mention putting leather or a hose under the rope in this thread.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...t)-Perspective

That actually sounds like a really good idea. Would just a piece of hose do a great job of protecting the rock and your rope? Then it would come down with the pull pretty easy, or it would at least be pretty easy to rig up a way to make sure it came down. But, I've never tried it so I can't be sure.

that seems like it would have mixed success. if you put a piece of hose or something under the rope during the rope pull it seems like the hose or whatever would have a good chance of getting pulled over by friction mid pull or something. my bet would be on extending the anchor for the experienced last person so the pull is clean, or getting sandtrap type techniques more generally understood and used. Those retrievable anchors look pretty cool too. but making it all idiot proof is the challenge so that new people can adopt better techniques. I think extending the anchor is the important thing to push for with where things are now. push for education on that and I think issues will drop.

[Iceaxe]

They mention putting leather or a hose under the rope in this thread.

Whatever you put on or under the rope you also have to be able to pull down without snagging when you are done.