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05-08-2011, 06:30 PM #1
Poaching permitted or closed canyons
the obvious question... how'd you get access to kaibito and peach???
you might consider some in the grand canyon too. silver grotto is one that comes to mind, but it takes a packraft to exit (as many of them do...)
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05-08-2011 06:30 PM # ADS
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05-08-2011, 06:37 PM #2
Thanks Carpey. I went and talked to the family that lives next to Peach and they said I could go see the canyon. Kaibito...I just risked it. I know, I know...I probably shouldn't.... I only did the hiking portions, nothing technical. I've seen Neon, including the Golden Cathedral. I'll have to look up what the triborough entry is.....
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05-08-2011, 07:19 PM #3
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05-08-2011, 07:41 PM #4
I never said it was the right thing to go into Kaibito, but in my defense, I went with other people who go there quite frequently, never went on my own. I honestly don't think any of those canyons will ever be opened up again, so if you want to see them, you just have to take the chance. In any event, this wasn't a thread about hiking morals. Thanks for all the info so far!
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05-08-2011, 08:57 PM #5
hiking morals? no, this is way more simple than discussing morals. this is about black and white legality. the canyons are closed, end of story. and it's very disappointing to hear you feel this way. there's a reason those canyons might not be opened up again, and this is a pretty good illustration why. the fact you are going with other people who frequent the place is even worse. might be time for a new crew?
the navajo have a lot of land with great canyon potential on it, not just in the kaibito chapter. access is far from guaranteed on any of it. as long as they feel people are disrespecting their rules and their land by illegally accessing parts of it, it's very hard to disagree with their decision to close it. if you can't realize that your decision negatively impacts access for everyone else, you need open your eyes and quit being so damn selfish.
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05-09-2011, 06:32 AM #6
I'm not disagreeing with you Carpey, but I haven't been back in those rez. canyons in years. I've actually been interested in seeing Pinon Falls, and Pinon canyon, and I have navajo friend who is gonna take me in to those. So yes, I will go about things the right way. I appreciate your information, but if you wanted to discuss this matter, you should have done it in a PM, not by hijacking the thread.
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05-09-2011, 09:31 AM #7
i'll be happy to split the thread if you feel it's not pertinent.
however, it was you who publicly stated you had been into canyons the community knows to be off-limits, not anyone else. you also publicly admitted illegal means to accessing them. not sure i follow why you shouldn't be publicly reminded those actions are illegal, potentially harmful to the canyoneering community and navajo tribe, and incredibly shortsighted.
the reason it is pertinent is because it's not prudent to put out a list of the most photogenic slots, and then list places that are closed as destinations. it only further complicates the issue. others should not get the idea they are worth "risking." they simply aren't.
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05-09-2011, 10:22 AM #8
Mod Hat ON - I split the thread - Mod hat OFF
That is YOUR opinion..... risk vs reward is a personal thing.... or at least it is to me.
I believe most of us have poached canyons for various reasons and usually we have a self serving reason of why we should be excluded from the rules....
Come to think of it, doesn't your latest work Into the Great Unknown violate a few rules? Did you have a commercial filming permit? Do you have rafting permits for your pack raft/float toys?
And I'm sure no one in this group has ever done Hog Heaven, Too Wet, kaibito, Pinion, Peach, anything is Zion without a permit, yada, yada....
Not saying poaching is right or wrong.... just saying my idea of risk vs reward probably doesn't agree with yours...
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05-09-2011, 10:41 AM #9
no, the last of the great unknown doesn't violate ANY rules. we've been working with the park very closely to make sure we meet all their criteria. we had a ranger with us for most of the filming on the river trip (which is entirely non-commercial in nature, hence needs no commercial filming permit, as per the park's rules) and we have secured a commercial filming permit for all the rest. if you are asking about the PFD and packrafting issue, feel free to read the replies already on the yahoo groups that explain it fully.
as for the zion stuff, you are probably right. most people have poached a canyon, myself included. i caved because i was the "new guy" and didn't fully realize what was going on. that was 2007. haven't done any poaching since, nor will i condone those who do, whatever their reasons.
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05-09-2011, 10:51 AM #10
In this case, the rewards go to the individual. The risk is partly to the individual, and partly to the community.
Therefore it is not an individual choice - your choices effect the community.
no man is an island blah blah blah
There are a few cases where your actions have no effect on the community. None come to mind at the moment, but I am sure there are some.
Tom
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05-09-2011, 10:59 AM #11
2007... Has it been that long?
Question. Do you really think Zion is ever going to loosen up? I know a few that are willing to pay the ticket rather than deal with the stupid/ illogical/ ill-conceived rules of the permit system.
(An aside: I wonder if by me making these types of posts is the reason I never win the Lottery in Zion. Am I still on a list? Hmmmm. Maybe I need to start saying that we should all just be quiet and let the rangers be our mothers, then maybe I could get a Subway permit one of these years. )Life is Good
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05-09-2011, 11:07 AM #12
So pack rafts are legal in the Grand Canyon? Meaning I can do a slot from the top, float down the river to an escape, and hike back out the top? Interesting.... I thought a canyoneer just get nailed for doing that. So exactly what rule did he break?
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05-09-2011, 11:15 AM #13
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05-09-2011, 11:17 AM #14
Why do you have to bring me into this? One of those canyons I had a permit, just not landowner permission. The other is almost a mile outside the park and I had a narrows permit when I entered the park! Harsh bro.
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05-09-2011, 11:19 AM #15
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05-09-2011, 11:24 AM #16
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05-09-2011, 11:28 AM #17
hahaha. i knew you'd show up!
scott is referencing a trip i did with him in 2007, when we had a permit, just for a different canyon. the canyon i will refuse to do is "eye of the needle" because of the trespassing issues. the other ones are probably legal, as far as the law permits. the gray area for a lot of the zion stuff is pretty big, and i really don't have much to offer for insight. i think the line is pretty well drawn though when you cross the limits of the law. ethical lines are harder to pin down. everyone can let their moral compass decide on the ethics of some of them...
however, in the case of the kaibito slots, i'm pretty charged up about all the people who seem to think it's cool to poach those canyons, even though they are very clearly off limits. seems like it is pretty common, and i can't see how it does anything to improve the situation.
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05-09-2011, 11:34 AM #18
Current rules allow packrafting off a backcountry permit up to 5 miles on the Big River. The particular adventure in question involved packrafting a bit further than that to get to the next available exit. The individual in question was ticketed. The rangers apologized when ticketing, saying they did not want to, but were overruled. The guy who overruled them admitted to said canyoneer that the rule was not very good. The rule is under re-consideration as we speak.
Tom
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05-09-2011, 11:35 AM #19
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05-09-2011, 11:51 AM #20
Closed or off limits canyons are automatically cooler and better than the couple of other legal canyons available in utah/arizona.
Canyoneers are inherent dissenters.
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